Reconciliing Multiple Holster Positions

[GJM]

Regardless of whether you think it is a problem, based on the average of the polls running on three forums, it is clear fifty or a greater percentage of people carrying appendix, also carry in another position. Debate isn't going to materially change that practice, because police officers who also carry appendix when concealed, aren't going to stop doing that or using duty holsters. Folks who carry appendix and shoot IDPA and USPSA Production, aren't going to give up competing. YVK will continue to use a fanny pack when he doesn't have a belt, and Jody will lounge around with his J frame, go out on date night with his pocket Kahr, and ride his dirt bike with an ALS.

So what do you do about this. I would suggest you first run a series of tests to determine what the time penalty is for going to the wrong holster. Surely, if you reach for your drop rig and then realize your pistol is appendix, do you give up or continue? Of course, it is no different than whether you get a bad grip, or a fouled shirt on a regular appendix draw -- you fix it and continue.

Start with measuring the delta in time, but then start making drills that force you to learn to quickly move your hand in response to a mistake. Or do what I do, and start the draw with a hand position common to appendix and hip carry. Train to the positions you carry, and spend your time worrying about more important things, like should you carry G2 or 124+P Gold Dot, or use the slide stop on a reload.

[rob_s]

I know a 20+ year LEO who thought he was going to need to shoot a mope and his hand went to his belt. Luckily the mope gave up as the gun was in a drop leg holster. That holster was replaced that day with a belt mounted version.

I've lost count of the number of times I've watched people fumble for drop-leg holsters, very often because they are wearing them at their knee and not their thigh. I don't know what it is about that position that causes so many people so many problems. My guess is that it's a combination of wearing it too low, and never training to draw from it at all, let alone often enough to be self-aware of the location of hte gun.

[El Cid]

I have literally had nightmares about doing that. Unfortunately, I'm short waisted and have to use a drop holster when I wear the heavy vest. And the drop flat out sucks for patrol stuff (ever try to draw from a drop holster while seated in a car...I have...it's not fun).

Yessir! Years ago our squad was given 6004's and we all thought we were sexy as hell. But we spend a lot of time in vehicles and as you mentioned, drawing like that with the muzzle pointed forward sucks something fierce! The drop leg also proved a PITA for foot chases, fence hopping, etc. We started by removing the top leg strap and hiking the holster up as high as we could. Eventually we moved to the UBL which allowed the holster to clear our tactical armor but was vertical and very close to our day to day concealable holsters.

I've lost count of the number of times I've watched people fumble for drop-leg holsters, very often because they are wearing them at their knee and not their thigh. I don't know what it is about that position that causes so many people so many problems. My guess is that it's a combination of wearing it too low, and never training to draw from it at all, let alone often enough to be self-aware of the location of hte gun.

Amen! That's part of how I decide whether a colleague is someone who is good vs. someone who thinks so. In 2008 I was at a Safe Streets Survival school in another part of the state. Some state AG investigators had drop legs at their knees with G27's. One of the instructors tried to help them but it was not getting through

[El Cid]

So what do you do about this. I would suggest you first run a series of tests to determine what the time penalty is for going to the wrong holster. Surely, if you reach for your drop rig and then realize your pistol is appendix, do you give up or continue? Of course, it is no different than whether you get a bad grip, or a fouled shirt on a regular appendix draw -- you fix it and continue.

Start with measuring the delta in time, but then start making drills that force you to learn to quickly move your hand in response to a mistake. Or do what I do, and start the draw with a hand position common to appendix and hip carry. Train to the positions you carry, and spend your time worrying about more important things, like should you carry G2 or 124+P Gold Dot, or use the slide stop on a reload.

I don't know that it's fixable. Barring a significant life event most will believe (rightly or wrongly) that they are prepared. And even if you could measure the time penalty, whether or not a person can recover from that deficit is going to be very different in every situation. We are also really looking at startle or emergency draws/responses. Ideally we will recognize the threat in enough time to get the gun out slowly and discreetly. I think I read somewhere that Evan Marshall was in 11 shootings and his gun was already in his hand for 10 of them.

It's like I mentioned with my use of a shoulder rig. I could get caught by surprise and reach for my belt instead of the gun. That delay could be very costly and I accept it under those specific circumstances. In my mind an error like that on my part is mitigated by my environment (in a vehicle except for refilling gas and coffee) where the vehicle buys me a reactionary gap and affords some protection. It's also a handy weapon in its own right.

Life is about managing and mitigating risk. As long as a people know their system works - press on. But in my experience most don't push/test themselves to really know for sure. Unfortunately we don't always get to choose how and when that test takes place. Sometimes it's on the range. Sometimes on the street. I don't like relying on luck to get me home.

[AtomicToaster]

Not being exactly a hard-wired operator type, my opinion ain't worth much, but here it is anyway:

I carry AIWB exclusively except for competition. My OH-KITTEN-I-NEED-MY-PISTOL-RIGHT-NOW holster position is always AIWB. My hear-the-beep-now-kindly-shoot-all-the-cardboard holster position is 9 o'clock OWB. In that situation, I don't see a problem with multiple holster positions.

For someone whose life-saving pistol changes holster positions frequently, the case may be different.

[LSP552]

I use different holsters (IWB and OWB) but they are all carried in the same 3:30 location. The only exception are my pocket and ankle guns, which are speciality things.

By using different hoisters, carried in the same location, I add versatility for dress and environment without the can't remember where my gun is under stress thingy.

[JodyH]

The more I learn about real life criminal assaults on civilians, the less I worry about pure reactionary speed from the holster.
Very rarely (if ever) is a civilian defensive handgun presentation a pure reactionary event (unlike say a LEO who's first inkling of a fight is getting shot in the vest).
For example, watching ECQC evolutions you'll see far more problems caused by poor timing decisions than you will fumbling with gun location (despite the fact that most people just stuff the T gun down their pants sans holster).
Watching a few dozen surveillance cam videos of muggings, assaults, robberies etc. will show you that reactionary draw speed is just not a big deal.

[ToddG]

For example, watching ECQC evolutions you'll see far more problems caused by poor timing decisions than you will fumbling with gun location ...

Misses the point, I think. The faster your draw, the more time you have to make up for an error in identifying a threat, etc. The better your SA and understanding of how to respond to pre-fight cues, the less time (or likelihood) you'll need to draw the weapon fast. Ideally, one would think, you'd want to be as best you can at both.

Watching a few dozen surveillance cam videos of muggings, assaults, robberies etc. will show you that reactionary draw speed is just not a big deal.

A few dozen surveillance vids of armed defenders? Otherwise I'm not sure how predictive they can be of what would have happened vis-à-vis armed response.

Right now, due to my arm, my best draw speed to an 8" target at 7yd is about four seconds whereas it used to be under 1. I can tell you without question that has an impact on what I can and can't do under a variety of what-if scenarios.

[Surf]

For myself, most of my adult life I have been carrying from more than one position out of necessity of the job, therefore I have never thought of it as odd to have an open and a concealed mode of carry which have always coexisted. I will admit that I have had various positions from concealment throughout the years. I actually carried appendix in the early 90's with a revolver then went to a hip carry and returned to appendix a few years back, which is my most current and frequent concealed position. I do however always understand the importance of practicing the different positions to the level of competence that I feel is necessary. So again, multiple carry positions has just been the norm and the time to train has also been the norm, at least for myself. I don't for a minute think that there are those who don't bother to practice anywhere near as much as they should as that is what normally is the case. Those on this forum are an exception to the rule with most weapons handling.

My current carry positions would be....
- Open carry on hip. This remains constant but I do at times train with a holster set up that places my support side as my primary side (I like to train support as primary from time to time).
- Concealed, AIWB. Causal attire
- Concealed, hip carry. More formal or tucked shirt with cover jacket
- Concealed, man bag. Beach attire (yes, I really do surf)

So I essentially have 4 variations of how I may carry a handgun. I do practice from the various modes of carry and from those who might recall my video content I showed all of them often except beach attire carry.

Practice or training is really a hard thing to nail down as some people may have the time and resources to practice way more than others, therefore time and resources are always a factor in how well we perform or how we should or should not be doing something. If you have the time and resources to do more, you can still be much more efficient in multiple positions than others who may only carry in one mode that have less time to practice their one mode of carry vs someone else who has the time to practice multiple modes. Might anyone be better if they only carried a single position even if they have tons of practice time? Yes, but at some point in skill level, the returns on investment diminish anyway and you start getting into hair splitting, so adding another mode of carry is just like adding another skill no matter what it is.

For myself, I think my situational awareness is good and my thought process in a critical incident goes at a quick pace, but that thought process does not seem to out think my reactive process on where the weapon is located. By this I mean that by the time the hair on the back of my neck is raised to the time that I have decided that the weapon needs to come out, I have already processed where it is being carried and drawn from and I have not been able to locate a measurable difference in reaction. Of course some modes of carry are faster than others, but I don't feel the process has slowed down to the point where I consciously need to think "OK, my gun needs to be drawn", to "where am I carrying it", to "ok, I got it out". The "where am I carrying it" process seems automatic or determined concurrently in my threat assessment phase, so by the time I actually draw the weapon, I already know where to draw from. If this makes sense.

I will edit this post to add, that when I put on a weapon I generally do a few draw repetitions before going out the door no matter the weapon placement. This even includes standard open hip carry.

[JodyH]

Misses the point, I think. The faster your draw, the more time you have to make up for an error in identifying a threat, etc. The better your SA and understanding of how to respond to pre-fight cues, the less time (or likelihood) you'll need to draw the weapon fast. Ideally, one would think, you'd want to be as best you can at both.

A few dozen surveillance vids of armed defenders? Otherwise I'm not sure how predictive they can be of what would have happened vis-à-vis armed response.

Right now, due to my arm, my best draw speed to an 8" target at 7yd is about four seconds whereas it used to be under 1. I can tell you without question that has an impact on what I can and can't do under a variety of what-if scenarios.

Not missing the point at all.
Reactionary draw speed is not the same as draw speed.

Yes, armed defenders.
Brazilian on and off duty cop videos are really interesting to watch.
In Brazil you have a much more violent criminal culture and they bad guys often start the robbery off by shooting at their intended victims, absolute worst case scenario of reactionary shooting and the off duty cops rack up the dead criminals.
Most of the off duty cops are also carrying AIWB and when you see their on duty gear it's pretty much always Level 3 drop leg.
Worst case scenario reactionary shooting combined with carrying in very different holster types and locations and it doesn't seem to make that much difference in the outcome of the shootings.