Differences in shoot-ability?

[JAD]

I think how much live fire is in your diet is really important. 200 rounds twice a month through a lightweight commander is not hard or bad. Much more than that and I get a little flinchy. I can shoot 4-500 rounds out of many 9s with no appreciable deterioration. It's a topic I've been exploring in my training journal.

[1slow]

I found 2,000 rounds in 4 days of shooting school to wear on me with a GL30 in .45ACP 230gr.

[psalms144.1]

I daily carry a G19 (Gen4). Our "training" load is M882 NATO ball - a 124 gr +P equivalent. I also have a G30S, and our issued "training" load for it is good old fashioned 230gr FMJ (in my case, loaded by Winchester in 1988 - yikes!). The two pistols are size/weight equivalent, generally speaking.

I CONSISTENTLY shoot more accurately on our qualification with the G30S - it's simply a more mechanically accurate pistol than the G19, AND, I believe that, in the SPECIFIC loads I'm shooting, the .45 is more consistent.

I ALWAYS shoot measurably better with my G19 on ANY drill that doesn't involve enormously generous "scoring zones" and time standards that can be measured with a sun dial (like our qualification). I can consistently shoot a "NOW" drill (draw, fire a full magazine, reload, fire one more round) into a fist sized group with the G19 at a 7 yards in 8 seconds or less (sometimes considerably less). With the G30S, not so much. I either have to slow my splits down quite a bit, or my accuracy suffers. As someone stated above - there's no arguing with the laws of physics.

In addition, I can confirm that, at just shy of 50, at the end of 300 rounds of training with the G30S, my gimped up left wrist is sore, and stays that way for a while. The G19 I can shoot all day, every day, even with a relatively "hard recoiling" 9mm load, with no aches or pains anywhere (except my ego, which HATES the accuracy I get from my G19...) This is one man's opinion, of course. When my old team got our HK45CTs (again size/weight equivalent with our G19s), none of the "young" guys seemed to notice or be bothered by the recoil difference (of course, that's an apples-to-oranges issue, due to differences in the platforms).

Regards,

Kevin

[BN]

Back before IDPA, my wife and I were shooting USPSA Limited with .45 ACP Paras at a 175 power factor. We both had experienced pain in our elbows. Soon after IDPA started we realized we could shoot our 9mm Glocks and soon our pain went away.

To help you see the difference in shoot-ability, just compare a 43 oz. 1911 in 9mm vs. a 43 oz. 1911 in .45 ACP.

[Mr_White]

Back before IDPA, my wife and I were shooting USPSA Limited with .45 ACP Paras at a 175 power factor. We both had experienced pain in our elbows. Soon after IDPA started we realized we could shoot our 9mm Glocks and soon our pain went away.

To help you see the difference in shoot-ability, just compare a 43 oz. 1911 in 9mm vs. a 43 oz. 1911 in .45 ACP.

You know, strictly speaking, you could have shot those 9mm Glocks in Limited...

[BN]

You know, strictly speaking, you could have shot those 9mm Glocks in Limited...

That was back when people looked down on and laughed at the funny plastic Glocks. I guess not much has changed. LOL

My first Glock 17 I got off a guy who was shooting it in Open Major. I guess he stuffed a bunch of Blue Dot in it and was shooting it because it was high capacity. Back then I think the magazine still couldn't be extended. I went on and shot it a lot for several years. Probably close to 100k. Still works just fine.

[JHC]

In my opinion, a 25 yd bill drill is a better indicator of your ability to control recoil than a 7 yard bill drill. At 7 yds, I can pull off a 1.8-1.9 bill drill with the 1911 whether using factory ammo or reloads vs. 1.9-2.0 with the Glocks. I can grip the gun hard enough that the recoil isn't going to take me out of the A zone at this distance. When I move back to 25 yards though, I shoot about a 2.9-3.3 bill drill with the Glocks or 1911 with 170pf reloads vs. 3.8-4.0 with the 1911 with factory ammo. I am also much more likely to pull shots into the D zone or even have complete misses with the 1911 with factory ammo because of the severity of recoil making it that much harder to reset the sight picture after each shot. We issue standard pressure .45 JHP's going about 850 fps. I can't imagine how much more difficult the 1911 would be to control at speed with 230 gr +p HST or the 220gr +p Hornady Critical Duty.

That's pretty interesting. I've got nowhere near that level of 7 yard capability with a 1911. I know pure grip strength is not my strong suit. Nor is "mass". It makes the point even stronger for 9mm for me.

[Gio]

I shot a couple hundred rounds this weekend through my Springfield Pro and finished up with about ~50 rounds out of my G19. Interestingly, I did several FAST drills (on a USPSA target) with the Pro at 7 yds. The fastest was 3.73, avg was 4.1, slowest was 4.58. I moved back to 15 yards and had 2/3 runs with close misses on the index card and a couple C's on the body shots (rounds still hit the USPSA target head) and one clean run with all A's and 2 index card hits in 5.78.

I finished the range session with the G19, ran a couple 7 yd FAST drills at 4.03 fastest, and ran three more 15 yd FAST drills all clean in 5.28, 5.15, and 5.01.

Just like my bill drill results posted earlier in this thread, the lack of recoil from the 9mm compared to factory 195 power factor .45 makes a big difference in shootability as I increase the distance to the target, especially when trying to recover the sights from recoil and make accurate follow up shots. The frustrating thing about it all is I can stand still at 15 yds and shoot a slow fire group with the Pro that would be half the size of the G19, but when I add time pressure to it, I can't overcome the physics of 195 pf vs. 135 pf.

[JV_]

The fastest was 3.73, avg was 4.1, slowest was 4.58.

Those are some pretty fast runs, do you happen to have any videos?

[Chuck Haggard]

I recall a similar thread on LF ref 9 vs .40, an extremely studly shooter in a special unit that does special things in special places spoke about being able to gun a G22 basically pretty much as well as a G17, but when one got to the G19 or G26 sized guns there was no way, "The juice ain't worth the squeeze". Doc might recall that thread.


I used to be able to shoot anything, and I did. That is likely one reason why I am so F'd up in my right elbow now. IMHO most of us only get so many magnum rounds in our life before something has to give. Had I known then what I know now I would have invested more heavily in 9mm pistols and ammo, and .38 WCs by the case, instead of doing what I was doing...