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Thread: Differences in shoot-ability?

  1. #41
    On the shoot ability issue, I really wish Gaston had designed the Glock with a more conventional grip angle. Perhaps not an issue for someone who only shoots a Glock exclusively for their career, but a constant challenge for me shooting the Glock and other stuff.

    With the Glock, I only get the muzzle fully level at the end of my extension, when I fully lock up and cam my support hand. That means I get a slight muzzle up arc on my presentation, compared to a Beretta, CZ, etc. It also means, if I am not fully locked up, my shots will impact high. Shooting one hand, where I don't get the benefit of support hand cam, I need to consciously cam my shooting hand over to level the muzzle.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  2. #42
    Member JHC's Avatar
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    In Gaston's brilliance this was to compensate for the yanking shots low tendency on that trigger.
    “Remember, being healthy is basically just dying as slowly as possible,” Ricky Gervais

  3. #43
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    All I want is for my G17 grip to "feel" and point like my P226…….
    Is this really too much to ask for??

    Oh, I also want my P226 trigger in the G17…...

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    On the shoot ability issue, I really wish Gaston had designed the Glock with a more conventional grip angle. Perhaps not an issue for someone who only shoots a Glock exclusively for their career, but a constant challenge for me shooting the Glock and other stuff.

    With the Glock, I only get the muzzle fully level at the end of my extension, when I fully lock up and cam my support hand. That means I get a slight muzzle up arc on my presentation, compared to a Beretta, CZ, etc. It also means, if I am not fully locked up, my shots will impact high. Shooting one hand, where I don't get the benefit of support hand cam, I need to consciously cam my shooting hand over to level the muzzle.
    I am the opposite. I've been shooting Glocks so long (and for some long stretches exclusively) that when I try to switch to anything else, I have to put in a significant amount of dry fire to naturally aim the sights where my eyes are looking.

  5. #45
    For myself I can definitely see small differences in performance under a microscope if that is the measure I am going by. In a real world situation, not sure if it really is going to make a great deal of difference as I don't think I will be ripping strings of fire into multiple targets, with reloads in between strings of fire while on a static line. Who knows never say never? I will say without a doubt from same platform in just full power caliber changes only there is definitely a difference in my pure performance under a microscope. As an example, if I go from a Sig P226 in 9mm to .40, no doubt. Go to a P220 or P227 less dramatic of a difference than 9mm or even .40 but it exists. Same results with a Glock as another example. Sight recovery is slightly different and shot spread size increases when rate of fire remains constant between all weapons. Now again this might be nit picking and if you are a "combat effective" type and are all good with everything in the A zone from 7-10 yards, if I am running .20 or so splits, then you probably wouldn't notice a difference in my targets if you only care about the A zone, but there is definitely going to be an increase in group size as a whole. Small but it exists.

    Quote Originally Posted by DocGKR View Post
    Chuck, I remember that LF thread very well, as the individual in question is HIGHLY experienced at battling many of our Nation's foes. He also has the distinction of having used 9mm, .40, and .45 Auto pistols in combat during various phases of his career. He wrote the following superb analysis discussing how pistol calibers and pistol sizes (competition = G34/35, full size/duty = G17/22, compact = G19/23, sub-compact = G26/27) effect his ability to shoot handguns well in combat situations:
    I am a long time member at LF but don't frequent there much and did not see this thread, but these are my exact same thoughts when it comes to the glock. G35 / G22 not my favorite but small difference. Step down to the G23 or G27 and it goes downhill quickly. I love the G19 but the G23 is one of my least favorite Glocks.

    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    On the shoot ability issue, I really wish Gaston had designed the Glock with a more conventional grip angle. Perhaps not an issue for someone who only shoots a Glock exclusively for their career, but a constant challenge for me shooting the Glock and other stuff.

    With the Glock, I only get the muzzle fully level at the end of my extension, when I fully lock up and cam my support hand. That means I get a slight muzzle up arc on my presentation, compared to a Beretta, CZ, etc. It also means, if I am not fully locked up, my shots will impact high. Shooting one hand, where I don't get the benefit of support hand cam, I need to consciously cam my shooting hand over to level the muzzle.
    I actually really like the grip angle. As a life long 1911 guy (flat mainspring housing) and carried a Sig P226 for 14 years going through 3 barrels in one pistol until I cracked the frame, I will say that I hated the Glock initially. I did however have a "come to Jesus, err come to Glock" moment where when things finally clicked, it was an immediate shift for me thereafter.

    Instead of trying to make the Glock fit my Sig / 1911 grip, I made my grip fit the Glock. This seems like a no brainer so to speak but it really was hard to overcome ingrained body mechanic until the light went on. I found that the added rotation of the support wrist had much more "lockout" power which lessened muzzle rise and created a quicker and more consistent return to neutral of the muzzle. Speed, accuracy of follow ups went through the roof. Others may not notice as much, but it was clear as day for me.

    As for the muzzle up on press out, I am right there with you. Same for me and you can still see it in some of my presentations. Mostly when I am not rushed and it may be a distance shot and I know I am going all the way to extension before the weapon is going to fire. Kind of the drop the front sight into the notch. Up close, rapid or flat presentations with a flat muzzle from 3 all the way to 4, I tend to tuck my primary elbow closer to the rib cage area and the support shoulder and elbow rise slightly higher. This keeps the body compact and cams the muzzle flat throughout the presentation. I do practice this quite a bit and it is completely natural for me to do. So I don't consciously think about the presentations they just happen according to the situation. Might not be ideal for everyone, but it has made me much better at what I do.

    Quote Originally Posted by LSP552 View Post
    All I want is for my G17 grip to "feel" and point like my P226…….
    Is this really too much to ask for??

    Oh, I also want my P226 trigger in the G17…...
    I want my Glock grip to feel like a P226 and wish they would remove the hump and finger grooves so that I don't have to. I don't do Glock mods for profit so if they just left it out I would OK with it. However I wish the Sig would point like the Glock with a steeper grip angle. Not much they can do about higher hand placement without a radical design shift. If I get too much "cam" or too high on the Sig, I get into fouling the slide stop and decocker. Again as a long time Sig guy, I nowadays really like a more "cammed" wrist position that is hard for me to get on the Sig.

  6. #46
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    Last winter was cold (by coastal standards) and dry. Most of my nights at the range in 2013 it was slipping into the low 40s or upper 30s by the end of the night. That was when I decided that shooting 45 wasn't as much fun as it used to be in my younger days. A M&P45 was distinctly unpleasant after 100 rounds. A 1911 was a lot better because of the extra weight. Until I went to my G19 or P2000, and was reminded that I can shoot those pistols in 9mm all night and it's still fun.

    This winter is mild and wet so far, it's 57 with scattered showers right now. I've shot only 9mm (and a little .38 special) this winter, and the .45s are collecting dust in the safe.

    I need to go someplace where it's really cold for a day or two just to find out what the various calibers feel like at 20 degrees. But I think I can guess.

    As for the discussion above on subcompacts; I got rid of my G26 for reliability reasons, it was one of those tolerance-stacked ones that just wouldn't work consistently. I had it long enough to know that it shot pretty well on warm dry days, and OK even on cold days. But with wet or sweaty hands, it tended to shift during faster fire. It rains a lot here half the year, so for me that matters.

    The discussion on age has got me thinking, too. In my 20s I shot mostly .45 and .357, I've been lucky and no elbow issues thus far. However if I think about the older guys at the range, it's the ones who usually shoot .45s and big magnums who are always complaining about aches and pains. The two guys I'm specifically thinking of are both pushing 80 so I guess that's to be expected. I've noticed that one of them now shoots .22 most of the night and only gets his 1911's out for a little while. The other guy still shoots his big stuff, the other day it was .41 magnum, and his range sessions are now down to about 30 minutes max per night.

  7. #47
    Gabe reminds me of a saying that the point of competition is to tease out tiny differences in ability, and by extension, shoot-ability. Since Bolke is in town, and we are shooting together Tuesday, I decided I better tune up on LEM. At the end of my Glock 17 session today, I pulled out a USP Compact .45 LEM, and shot 70 rounds. It is dead nuts accurate and reliable. It is also dead nuts slow, by Glock standards. I can't imagine the difference would matter in a fight, as it puts those big bullets where you aim -- it just doesn't like to be made to do it in a hurry by modern timer standards.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

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