Why do we encourage folks to live fire from appendix carry?

[GJM]

I am not sure why folks, who also carry three o'clock for work, gun games, or otherwise, do much live fire practice from appendix. The difference between AIWB and three o'clock, is the draw, and dry fire is a very efficient way to practice drawing.

A few years ago, I made a decision to live fire from OWB and dry fire from appendix. A week or two ago, I forgot my OWB holster at home, and did my live fire session with a G19 out of my AIWB holster. First real live fire appendix session in a year or more, and my live fire confirmed that dry fire worked as I expected.

The law of large numbers says, regardless of platform and technique, the more people doing something such as AIWB, the greater the likelihood of an ND. And with AIWB, regardless of the odds, the stakes are enormous. I think there are a number of reasons folks live fire from AIWB -- some good and most bad. A good reason being that is the ONLY way they carry, and don't want to learn a different draw. Some bad reasons are: it is perceived as cool, they never considered an alternative like dry fire AIWB draw practice, and the vanity of wanting a .1 or .2 faster draw from concealment over concealed OWB when doing PF oriented drills.

I recognize each person gets to decide, but I would like folks to consider there are alternatives, given the stakes.

[Trooper224]

If a person chooses to use any particular carry method they should be practicing live fire from that method. If a shooter feels the risks of a particular carry method are great enough to exclude drawing/holstering from it during live fire practice what do they think the results will be off the square range under stress? If a carry method can't be used regularly for live fire practice because of safety concerns then there's something inherently wrong with that method. I'm not saying that AIWB carry shouldn't be used, I'm just trying to follow your logic which I find a bit questionable. Repetition breeds efficiency with anything, including the act of holstering a loaded weapon.

[GJM]

Before I answer this further, I should ask whether you regularly dry fire, and if so, why you believe live fire is efficient or necessary in practicing your draw?

[psalms144.1]

My two cents, and again, from a guy who's just too fat to get around to AIWB.

I liken this discussion to the pervasive, soul-sucking horror that is clearing barrels in the military. If you are forward deployed on a "base," you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a clearing barrel. The Army is ESPECIALLY anally-retentive about this, spastically loading, clearing, reloading, clearing, etc throughout the day. Turning out for duty? Load up. Going into the chow hall? Clear (because a loaded weapon in the chow hall is MUCH more dangerous than a loaded weapon on the street, apparently). Back to duty? Load up. Sent over to a HQs bldg as a runner? Clear before entering. Then load when leaving. Is it any wonder that the Army has a HORRIFICALLY high ND rate (especially when you combine the generally nearly non-existent training most soldiers receive on weapons handling)? AND that the majority of these NDs occur at/near clearing barrels? The moral - LOAD IT, HOLSTER IT, LEAVE IT THE KITTEN ALONE, and it won't go bang when you don't want it to.

The same holds true with live fire training. UNLESS YOU ARE DELIBERATE AND HAVE BEEN PROPERLY TRAINED IN SAFE WEAPONS HANDLING, the more you draw/reholster live, the higher the probability that Murphy will mess up your day. As properly noted, a visit from Murphy while drawing/holstering AIWB has consequences that will LIKELY far outweigh those of other modes of carry.

Where am I going with this ramble? Here - we would all be MUCH better off if everyone with a firearm had proper training, and we all adhered to the thought of 80% dry fire to 20% live fire. Make the mistakes when the consequences are small (dry fire) and develop/adopt GOOD gun-handling procedures, then transfer those to live fire.

I've watched some folks who shouldn't have a loaded gun ever, and frankly scare the ever-living dog-kitten out of me everytime they show up on my range. On the other hand, watching some of y'all in action, and I would be willing to stand next to whatever target you were engaging, because your approach, regardless of speed of execution, is methodical, deliberate, and smooth. And how did they get that way - deliberate, well thought out training.

Regards,

Kevin

[StraitR]

I must have done thousands of presentations with a SIRT pistol out of a Keepers concealment holster, closely scrutinizing (even took video of myself) my trigger finger and where the prep laser first appears, long before I ever carried my Glock. Even after that, and to this day, anytime I present from appendix on the live fire range I get the willies. No matter how many times I visually and manually clear the holster, or how slow and methodical I reholstered, a little part of me would cringe until I heard the "click" of the gun finally settling into the kydex.

After a long hiatus from the platform, I've recently changed back (not for carry/safety reasons) to a gun which happens to have a manual safety. While I still adamantly acknowledge and respect the dangers of AIWB carry, the squeamish fear is gone now that I can ride that manual safety into the holster.

Anyone contemplating AIWB carry, and even for those that have already committed, I can't recommend the SIRT pistol enough. The training feedback is invaluable, both for progression and confidence.

[JodyH]

Before I answer this further, I should ask whether you regularly dry fire, and if so, why you believe live fire is efficient or necessary in practicing your draw?

Dry fire does not give the same feedback on grip that live fire does.
You can get away with obtaining a slightly sloppy grip while doing dry fire, your grip has to be perfect for a solid Bill Drill.
Getting your grip from AIWB is significantly different than getting one from AOWB and completely different than strong side OWB.

Sight alignment at the moment of trigger press can only be really determined by where the bullet hole is in the target.
Even a laser or Sirt isn't as accurate of an indicator as where the bullet punches a hole on paper.
The path between the holster and full extension is completely different between AIWB and strong side and getting that true bullet hole feedback on paper is mandatory.

This is especially true for beginner and intermediate shooters because they don't have nearly as many good repetitions under their belt to make educated evaluations while dry firing.
If you're at the point you can accurately "call your shot" while live fire then you can probably call your shot dry, but getting to that point requires a lot of live fire from your carry position.
You (GJM) don't see the need for as much live fire because you know what a good shot feels and looks like and can call your shots live and dry.
Put yourself in a beginners shoes where you don't have a clue (maybe a vague idea at best) where the bullets hit until you walked up to the target, those folks need the live fire feedback. Dry fire may feel good to them but the paper will tell a completely different story.

The paradox is the people most likely to have an accident are the ones who need the most live reps.

[GJM]

Dry fire does not give the same feedback on grip that live fire does.
You can get away with obtaining a slightly sloppy grip while doing dry fire, your grip has to be perfect for a solid Bill Drill.
Getting your grip from AIWB is significantly different than getting one from AOWB and completely different than strong side OWB.

Sight alignment at the moment of trigger press can only be really determined by where the bullet hole is in the target.
Even a laser or Sirt isn't as accurate of an indicator as where the bullet punches a hole on paper.
The path between the holster and full extension is completely different between AIWB and strong side and getting that true bullet hole feedback on paper is mandatory.

This is especially true for beginner and intermediate shooters because they don't have nearly as many good repetitions under their belt to make educated evaluations while dry firing.
If you're at the point you can accurately "call your shot" while live fire then you can probably call your shot dry, but getting to that point requires a lot of live fire from your carry position.

If folks are dry firing with a different grip than live fire, they need to upgrade their dry fire game.

As to beginner and intermediate shooters, they are precisely the folks who should NOT be live firing from appendix -- and they can just as easily learn to correlate their dry and live fire from OWB.

[JodyH]

If folks are dry firing with a different grip than live fire, they need to upgrade their dry fire game.

But how do they know they know their grip is different live vs. dry without testing it?

[JAD]

. If a shooter feels the risks of a particular carry method are great enough to exclude drawing/holstering from it during live fire practice what do they think the results will be off the square range under stress? .

I subscribed to George's newsletter a long time ago on this one.

The difference, Trooper, is that I expect to have to draw and holster from appendix under duress between none and one times, ever. Rolling the dice once or twice against high stakes is one thing. In live practice I generally draw and holster about 100 times. Rolling the dice 100 times against high stakes, no matter how low the odds, is not comfortable for me.

[JodyH]

If we're approaching it from a pure safety perspective, I guarantee there have been more "dry fire" accidents and deaths than AIWB live fire accidents and deaths.
In theory dry fire is safer than live fire from the holster.
In practice more people have shot their mirror, TV, pets, loved ones or themselves "dry" than have shot their femoral live from AIWB.