wadcutter in snubbie

[LSP972]

I wouldn't willingly use RN bullets to shoot anything alive if I had a choice...

Neither would I, and I had hoped to get that point across.

The main point was this; there wasn't a large hue and cry for better ammo, as what they had was getting the job done overall stateside. The .36 caliber handgun was a total failure in the Phillipines, but we're back to that abnormally difficult target to stop; one that is chemically enhanced, either through drugs or natural bad-assery.

Hey, I'm still a firm believer in the "bigger is better" theory; which is why I continue to lug a .45 around all day. I know that it doesn't really matter WHAT ammunition I put in the pistol… if its hot enough to function the gun, it will do against the odd street robber or car-jacker if I do MY part.

OTOH, if I had to carry a 9mm with ball, I would be thinking about shooting many more times per target… but I wouldn't kill myself in resignation.

.

[Chuck Haggard]

The .45 Colts they brought over to the PI to shoot at the Moros with didn't work any better than the .38s, nor did the 30-40Krags, unless they got a CNS hit.

Shotguns loaded with buckshot appeared to have been rather effective, which is kinda why they have always been popular for such work.

[LSP972]

The .45 Colts they brought over to the PI to shoot at the Moros with didn't work any better than the .38s.

Depends on who wrote the story; I've read it both ways. All do, however, agree that the Krags were ineffective and that 97s and 00B was the only way to be sure, so to speak.

.

[jetfire]

The .45 Colts they brought over to the PI to shoot at the Moros with didn't work any better than the .38s, nor did the 30-40Krags, unless they got a CNS hit.

Shotguns loaded with buckshot appeared to have been rather effective, which is kinda why they have always been popular for such work.

A common thread through history seems to be that while various round xyz always has critics, a chest full of lead buckshot solves most problems pretty conclusively.

[JodyH]

A common thread through history seems to be that while various round xyz always has critics, a chest full of lead buckshot solves most problems pretty conclusively.

Right up until the invention of the Magpul DVD.
After that turning point in history #00 12ga. became obsolete and the rise of the mighty Tapco M4 began.

[JBP55]

A long gun may be the right choice good if you are at home and have access to it. Many have access to a handguns 24/7.

[Jeep]

Right up until the invention of the Magpul DVD.
After that turning point in history #00 12ga. became obsolete and the rise of the mighty Tapco M4 began.

Luckily, most people these days don't get to find out if a M4 will work on doped-up Moros; though after hearing some of the stories Chuck has about meth heads and crooks on bath salts and the like, perhaps the shotgun will become fashionable again.

[elsquid]

A common thread through history seems to be that while various round xyz always has critics, a chest full of lead buckshot solves most problems pretty conclusively.

Double-ought buck is not the stopper people say it is. We had more guys drop and fall if they were hit with the .30-caliber carbine. That seemed to do more damage than the 00 buck. I think the 00 buck just penetrated them in different areas and being it was a round ball, it pierced the tissue and either went through or it stayed in them.

We had a gas station holdup where they fired 00 buck at them and the guys both took off. We caught them two years later in another robbery. It was the same guys. They looked at one guy's back and he had all these wounds from 00 buck. So they asked him, "Who was the doctor that treated you?" He said, "Man, I didn't go to no doctor." So the officer said, "Who treated your wounds?" "My girlfriend. She done poured iodine in the holes."

Paul Kirchner. Jim Cirillo's Tales Of The Stakeout Squad (Kindle Locations 963-965). Kindle Edition.

That quote does give me pause.

-- Michael

[LSP972]

Double-ought buck is not the stopper people say it is. We had more guys drop and fall if they were hit with the .30-caliber carbine. That seemed to do more damage than the 00 buck. I think the 00 buck just penetrated them in different areas and being it was a round ball, it pierced the tissue and either went through or it stayed in them.

We had a gas station holdup where they fired 00 buck at them and the guys both took off. We caught them two years later in another robbery. It was the same guys. They looked at one guy's back and he had all these wounds from 00 buck. So they asked him, "Who was the doctor that treated you?" He said, "Man, I didn't go to no doctor." So the officer said, "Who treated your wounds?" "My girlfriend. She done poured iodine in the holes."

Paul Kirchner. Jim Cirillo's Tales Of The Stakeout Squad (Kindle Locations 963-965). Kindle Edition.

That quote does give me pause.

-- Michael

Why? Anomalies exist in everything.

Some of us here have seen multiple victims of shotgun wounds (birdshot as well as buck shot), and know that the shotgun wins almost every time.

I like the folks who bleat about birdshot being worthless for HD. Wrong… I have stood over evidence to the contrary more than once. Sure, for a general purpose defensive load, birdshot is at the bottom of smart choices. But at room distances (20 feet or less), a centered load of birdshot is every bit as lethal as buckshot or a bear ball. The key word there is "centered".

And then you have psychological incapacitation, like the second guy we shot after adopting the 9mm. He was hit in the bicep, a clean through-and-through shot that didn't do much at all; except convince him that he was done and should give up.

Not taking anything away from Cirillo; he was truly a legend in his own time. But anomalies are anomalies… keep everything in perspective.

.

[Chuck Haggard]

In that case El there was an obvious failure of the pattern to penetrate into any vital area at all. Not sure why, if it was due to distance, defective ammo, barriers, etc.


Jim and I had several conversations on incidents such as this, including one where his partner hit a bad guy with 2 1/2 patterns of OO buck (shot was aimed to strike both bad guys with the pattern as they were standing very close together), and that bad guy was also hit with a .38 round, before the bad guy quit. He chalked it up to some people being a lot tougher than others.
In that shooting the bad guy's partner hit the floor from catching that other half of the OO buck patter and never moved.

I do know that a number of the instant stops I am aware of involved at least one pellet hitting the CNS, and OO buck has enough penetration to hit the spine on frontal torso shots on the average grown man.
At close range the pattern will remove meat from bone, can cause traumatic amputation of limbs, or leave a hole the size of your fist. That's tough to walk away from regardless of how doped up a guy is.

I do like to use the info from Jim ref the .30carbine (the Stake-out Squad tended to use carbines that had been tweeked to feed SPs) when people start down the ".30carbine sucks" road.