Page 7 of 7 FirstFirst ... 567
Results 61 to 69 of 69

Thread: How Important Is The Perfect Grip?

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by OrigamiAK View Post
    Quick question for those who aren't concerned about having the slide/barrel align with the bones of the forearm when shooting freestyle from mod iso: do you think that lack of alignment becomes more significant when the pistol is fired with one hand only?

    What I'm getting at is whether there may be a difference between lacking that alignment in mod iso because of back pressure in the wrist/forearm of the strong hand, vs. lacking that alignment because the hand and gun don't fit well so the h-grip is used out of necessity, and how effectively those two arrangements might translate to shooting the gun one-handed.
    I was a Chapman type of shooter from 25+ years ago, so the "muzzle alignment with the forearm bone" was more advantageous at that time as that type of stance aligns the muzzle, forearm and eye from an offset or canted stance in a straight alignment. It took me many years to get over that ingrained concept even after adapting to the Mod Iso, where I thought I still needed that bone alignment. The argument is recoil mitigation along the bone structure, yada, yada. Hell I taught that alignment for years admittedly out of dogmatism, even though I myself had gone completely away from it. I only completely scrapped teaching it within my program in the last 3 years or so, instead attempting to get a natural point of aim first and if forearm alignment does or does not happen so be it, with one caveat. If the shooters hand is so small that the natural point of aim alignment puts the backstrap of the weapon on the knuckle of the primary shooting hands thumb, than this can also be an issue.

    In a true Mod Iso, the main concern IMO is the neutrality of the grip. Keeping the weapons alignment straight with the LOS without the need for any tension, be it muscular, counter tension or counter torquing of the weapon. Of course people can be phenoms and do things with high success that most cannot. From any stance I believe we should align the weapon in the same manner we align a rifle with a natural point of aim, or the natural LOS without any influence from the grip, fingers or tension applied on the weapon to get the alignment.

    As for your question directly in regards to one handed shooting, think of this. Go from a two handed Mod Iso without bone alignment. Then remove your support hand and push the weapon and your primary hand forward at bit. Your shoulders rotate slightly, the head moves slightly and the pistol and hand comes in to a bone alignment allowing for more stability that you lost with the support hand. Your grip on the weapon does not change but the alignment straightens itself out. For myself and those that I work with most often will tend to pronate the grip slightly, never going beyond 45* cant. This is often a default for myself as a good deal of my one handed shooting revolves around a shield and unless if you have orangutan length arms you must bend at the elbow and cant the pistol in order to be able to even get on the sights. I used to have video shooting rapid strings of fire on steel from this pronated or canted position and I used to get quite a bit of inquiry or comments over it. Bottom line is if you start to pronate the palm, the wrist structure gets stronger, which manages recoil efficiently. You must however get used to the path of recoil as recovery of the weapon is no longer up and down. But with one hand on the weapon will still need to learn a varied path of recovery anyway.

  2. #62
    Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    New York
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Haggard View Post
    I imagine the reason you were asked was due to it being uncommon for Glocks and such to crap the bed, while it is very common for lower priced 1911s to do so.

    What long term or wide ranging info do you have that any of the 1911s you listed work?

    Hello Chuck,

    On 1911s: No experience as such to write home about, especially in comparison to company here.
    To answer your question in completion would mean access to MTBF rates and actual statistical (quality assurance/control) data from production, and access to service/repair logs at the manufacturer service level. Of those three only the first is potentially available to “the public”.
    I have seen a fair number of guns do weird things under multiple day / day long activity. Of the lot it is my (again limited) experience that 1911s across the board suffer a higher failure rate – where failure is defined as the inability to immediately return the gun to service without major intervention (parts, or armorer/gunsmith action) when compared to M&Ps, Glocks, classic SIGS (P2xx).
    At best, my response is based solely on anecdotal data, as I do not have a swath of data wide or deep enough to boldly make claims. It is not enough to say that FNS9’s are garbage because my personal model had problems where the gun ran off the rails and into the river, or likewise that a specific model of 1911/Glock/Walther is awesome because I’ve put 2k trouble free rounds thru mine.
    But, I’ve worked on enough guns - I have been an armorer for SIG, 1911, AR15, Glock, M&P, etc , as well as having had been a NYS licensed gunsmith, and interacted (interact) with a broad enough pool of shooters on the ranges and in classes to make what I consider to be a sound practical statement on the models I’ve mentioned.

    I have seen $1100 Kimbers do what you describe on the range (fail) , and I’ve seen Glocks and SIGS likewise fail – some enough to be classified as a stoppage, others where some mechanism on the gun fails but where the gun will continue to run if the user/operator understands how to work around/beyond the malfunction. I have also seen higher end 1911s fail – one in particular, which was no fault of the manufacturer but due to the shooter not following mfgr recommendations on use & service. Likewise I have seen Berettas, SIGs, Glocks, revolvers etc to failure from lack of proper maintenance.

    In your experience, and with your access, what evidence have to seen to discount my claim that those specific models I’ve listed are unreliable for CCW duty? I’ve made my initial statement in this thread based on the stated need(s) McCoy's girlfriend. Yes, you are rolling the dice on a lower end 1911 in a 2 day 800 round class – especially if the gun requires a break-in period. A similar conundrum is not a part of a G19s reality; it can be taken out of box, cleaned (or not) and pressed into service with that stated round count without batting an eye.

    I’ve always recommended to folks they get the most reliable gun they can afford that fits their hands, and whose recoil they can deal with. I meant to add in my original post to the OP a question on how much is his or his girlfriend’s peace of mind and ultimately life worth – the difference between a $500 gun and a $1100 gun? Absolutely the difference ($600) will get you two days of quality training and hotel rooms at many of the top/intermediate tier gun-training entities, but if you extrapolate that difference in cost of the gun (say 1911 vs Glock) over the useful service life of the pistol (conservatively speaking, 20 years) then the difference in cost really is negligible. If she (his girlfriend) gets a G19 – and I did list some of the pluses of doing so, but shelves if after a fashion because of slight discomfort with the grip, the gun ends up where I see many guns here end up – not being carried as originally intended.

    On occasion when I am faced with a man-woman team where the man is helping the woman choose the gun, what is really happening is the man is overpowering the woman’s perspective and ends up with a gun that he likes, but she is not fully comfortable with. I’ve had enough pairs come to me where I’ve recommended additional training with a shotgun, knowing the female’s handgun does not get as utilized as planned. I aint saying this is what is happening here – his girl seems all squared away with being a gunny. I did not post this because

    1. The OP did not ask for this opinion! and
    2. Sometimes advice from the FNG may be sound or practical, it may come across the wrong way. Had I included this piece in my original response folks may have seen the balance in my thoughts.


    Hope this all makes sense. In closing, women who are earnest about shooting makes me warm all over. I've long preached that we (ardent shooters & 2A proponents) need to help women as much as possible be comfortable on the range, in the class and with their selected guns. Women have a bigger impact than men for passing on the love of shooting to our offspring because in general women in our society spend more time raising our kids, and from a "personal security" perspective - and this is an original thought of mine and was pleasantly pleased when I heard Chris Costa voice a similar if not identical opinion...the difference being he is much more handsome, proficient, and makes videos I cannot replicate in my dreams on a very good day, I heard Costa in a video say that lots of men go to training and bulk up on training because they want to "protect their families" but leave a big ol blind spot in their training because their girlfriends and wives often have much lesser training than they do, but are the ones running around with the kids to dance class, Jr karate, pee-wee soccer, etc (not his exact words, paraphrasing here).

    Have a safe, productive day out there folks.
    P210-6

  3. #63
    Thinking outside the box :
    What about a 380auto? Or sticking with a 9mm, the Springfield XDS in 9mm. It is a single stack 9mm that fits the bill for me as a ccw. Good luck.

  4. #64
    There is no such thing as the "perfect" grip, but it is impoertant enough to ditch one gun in favor of another if the first one doesn't feel or fit right.

    My advice will be different than anyone else because I have a range of unconventional grips that I use depending on the gun and the circumstances.

    For the momewnt, let's keep the circumstances to the real-world, life-or-death decisions and situations in which you may actually have to use your gun to save a life and possibly take another in the process. George Scott's memorable opening speech in the movie "Patton" always comes to mind when I think of this. If I may, allow me to repeat it:

    NO MAN EVER WON A WAR BY WANTING TO DIE FOR HIS COUNTRY

    First of all: the whole Weaver vs. Triangle stance is

  5. #65
    At the risk of exposing myself a total novice, I believe that I can relate here.


    I have small hands, too. It was very frustrating learning to shoot pistols. My first training experience was a 4 day affair with a 1911 from a less than desirable manufacturer. I was using what I had.

    It became very apparent that my finger placement on the trigger was paramount for accuracy. I was really struggling because to guarantee my 1st shot was good meant that my follow-up shot was rushed and thrown low and left. I had to choose between good trigger finger placement, or forearm alignment. Couldn't have both.

    The instructors insisted that I used their preferred grip, which they called a modified Weaver.

    It just didn't work for me. No matter what, I couldn't make that pistol recoil straight back like I was supposed to. Very frustrating.

    Later on, I took a 2 day class from the same people. This time I took an XD Subcompact 9 and a Glock 23. I was experiencing the same problems. I attributed my lack of control to my small hands and the inability to line the pistol up with my forearm.

    After taking those 2 classes, I tried numerous different pistols; read tons of info and watched tons of videos, including many from Surf.

    I was very discouraged because I wanted to shoot the pistols that I wanted. I didn't want to be limited to the small revolvers, and small semiautomatics that supposedly fit properly.

    One day I just decided to hell with it. I'm gonna shoot what I want to shoot and figure out a way to drive them that works for me.

    I found some Jerry Miculek videos and also some videos by a guy calling his technique 'Fist Fire'. Now, maybe this was being taught all along and I didn't hear it, but I found my solution: it's all in the weak hand.

    I started experimenting and focusing more on my left hand for recoil control, and my right hand was positioned so that I had perfect trigger control. I rolled my left wrist dramatically forward and locked my wrist so that it was a stationary wall in front of the pistol handle. I was trying to use leverage in front of the pistol, rather than bone mass behind the pistol.

    Holy smokes. I can't tell you how happy I was when my M&P 45 started going straight back and then forward again on target! I tried it with all my semi-autos and I was able to do it with consistency.

    The downside side is that some instructors may give me a hard time, because my grip is not textbook.

    But it works for me and I can shoot any pistol I please, and that's all I care about. My forearm and wrist aren't aligned with the bore of the pistol and I don't care.
    Last edited by zacii; 12-24-2014 at 08:01 PM.

  6. #66
    Like Chuck stated earlier, hand to handgun fit is important. I have big wide hands and my carry gun is a Sig Pro with the large grip. The large grip allows me to get just the right amount of finger on the trigger all the way through the trigger press. My wife has small slender hands and can't shoot the Sig worth a darn. My S&W SD9VE is much smaller in the grip area, which allows her a much firmer grip and reaching the trigger without shifting her hand further around the grip is possible.

  7. #67
    Chasing the Horizon RJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Quote Originally Posted by zacii View Post

    I started experimenting and focusing more on my left hand for recoil control, and my right hand was positioned so that I had perfect trigger control. I rolled my left wrist dramatically forward and locked my wrist so that it was a stationary wall in front of the pistol handle. I was trying to use leverage in front of the pistol, rather than bone mass behind the pistol.

    Holy smokes. I can't tell you how happy I was when my M&P 45 started going straight back and then forward again on target! I tried it with all my semi-autos and I was able to do it with consistency.

    The downside side is that some instructors may give me a hard time, because my grip is not textbook.

    But it works for me and I can shoot any pistol I please, and that's all I care about. My forearm and wrist aren't aligned with the bore of the pistol and I don't care.
    I'm also a noob, and funnily enough, I went through a very similar experience recently with my M&P FS9.

    I'd been watching a Bob Vogel video about the fundamentals of grip. I also moved my support (right, in my case) hand much farther forward than before, almost cupping the trigger guard.

    Mr. Vogel's comments about controlling the pistol "where the bullet comes out" made a lot of sense to me.

  8. #68
    Oils and Lotions SME
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Western Pa
    Quote Originally Posted by zacii View Post
    At the risk of exposing myself a total novice, I believe that I can relate here.


    I have small hands, too. It was very frustrating learning to shoot pistols. My first training experience was a 4 day affair with a 1911 from a less than desirable manufacturer. I was using what I had.

    It became very apparent that my finger placement on the trigger was paramount for accuracy. I was really struggling because to guarantee my 1st shot was good meant that my follow-up shot was rushed and thrown low and left. I had to choose between good trigger finger placement, or forearm alignment. Couldn't have both.

    The instructors insisted that I used their preferred grip, which they called a modified Weaver.

    It just didn't work for me. No matter what, I couldn't make that pistol recoil straight back like I was supposed to. Very frustrating.

    Later on, I took a 2 day class from the same people. This time I took an XD Subcompact 9 and a Glock 23. I was experiencing the same problems. I attributed my lack of control to my small hands and the inability to line the pistol up with my forearm.

    After taking those 2 classes, I tried numerous different pistols; read tons of info and watched tons of videos, including many from Surf.

    I was very discouraged because I wanted to shoot the pistols that I wanted. I didn't want to be limited to the small revolvers, and small semiautomatics that supposedly fit properly.

    One day I just decided to hell with it. I'm gonna shoot what I want to shoot and figure out a way to drive them that works for me.

    I found some Jerry Miculek videos and also some videos by a guy calling his technique 'Fist Fire'. Now, maybe this was being taught all along and I didn't hear it, but I found my solution: it's all in the weak hand.

    I started experimenting and focusing more on my left hand for recoil control, and my right hand was positioned so that I had perfect trigger control. I rolled my left wrist dramatically forward and locked my wrist so that it was a stationary wall in front of the pistol handle. I was trying to use leverage in front of the pistol, rather than bone mass behind the pistol.

    Holy smokes. I can't tell you how happy I was when my M&P 45 started going straight back and then forward again on target! I tried it with all my semi-autos and I was able to do it with consistency.

    The downside side is that some instructors may give me a hard time, because my grip is not textbook.

    But it works for me and I can shoot any pistol I please, and that's all I care about. My forearm and wrist aren't aligned with the bore of the pistol and I don't care.
    There are a number of instructors out there who aren't wrapped up with forearm alignment.

  9. #69
    On one hand, there is the desire to be as good as one can be; which draws in a range of nuances and esoterica that may not be wholly relevant to most shooters' lot in things.

    On the other hand, there is the economy of time to impart sufficient ability to get holes in the right places in the right timeframe.

    The latter probably has precedent before the former, though there's no charge for learning things right in the first place, except when the minutiae bog down the main effort.

User Tag List

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •