There are subtleties involved, too. I also have small hands. Although they are similar in size, I find the grip of the Kahr CW9 more comfortable than the Shield.
There are subtleties involved, too. I also have small hands. Although they are similar in size, I find the grip of the Kahr CW9 more comfortable than the Shield.
"It's surprising how often you start wondering just how featureless a desert some people's inner landscapes must be."
-Maple Syrup Actual
For me, the major consideration with pistol and hand interface is reliability. All pistols but especially polymer framed pistols are susceptible to malfunctions from an interface that does not solidly lock up the frame and keep it steady while the moving parts reciprocate.
- It's not the odds, it's the stakes.
- If you aren't dry practicing every week, you're not serious.....
- "Tache-Psyche Effect - a polite way of saying 'You suck.' " - GG
John, I completely agree. I used to scoff at the idea of Glock "limp wristing" as I'd NEVER been able to make a 9mm Glock malfunction, even shooting it with the loosest possible grip. Then I took a co-worker to the range who wanted to try my G26 (looking for a smaller/lighter alternative to the issued P229). My perfectly reliable G26 went to poop in her hands, failing to feed, failing to go fully into battery, etc - at least 2-3 times/magazine. She's a fine shooter with her issued pistol, and when she tried another guy's G27, had no trouble, but something about the way she "interfaced" with the G26 made it a non-starter for her (which I think is a shame).Originally Posted by John Hearne
Doesn't sound like that's an issue in this case, though...
In reply to the original post and question:
I'm going to alter the OP's terminology: replacing his use of "proper grip" with "idealized" or "textbook grip;" if "proper grip" is defined as the grip that allows one to execute rapid and accurate fires with the given pistol, and "textbook grip" is defined as the optimal hand in proportion to a given pistol with both in ideal positions relative to each other. Such photos often involve j-frames and 1911s held in medium to large hands, and gloss over the reasoning and hierarchy of priorities, in favor of overly-brief specifics.
For frame of reference, I wear a size 2 or 4 in the military glove sizing system.
A textbook grip is only of benefit to the shooter if their hands and weapon are in similar relativity to what is depicted and described. A proper grip is self evident by the hits and splits it enables.
I believe that the trigger finger placement has priority over the placement of the web of the hand; one must fire a well-placed round before one can manage the recoil, after all. So the first is established, and then the second is made from what remains. Identifying points of reference on the weapon are essential for building a consistent and practical firing grip from the onset - tactile indexing points first for how the firing hand lands on the weapon, and then for the trigger fifer to index onto the frame as the weapon is drawn clear of the holster. The goal in identifying either is to have a proper firing grip from the initial; and barring that, to know that adjustment is needed before the trigger finger enters the trigger guard.
My wife has small but very strong hands (blacksmithing, stone sculpting, pottery etc...). The HK P2000SK Lem is her favorite 9mm.
She hates my Glocks and now that I am using P30 LEM 9mms and HK45s says that she was right all along.
I've seen a couple of people mention "feel", we might need a reminder that "feel" is overrated.
http://pistol-training.com/archives/5108
The issues with grip that I commonly see, and as the OP noted, is in getting a solid shooting grip on the gun from the holster.
In the past when we issued the S&W 5906 we had all kinds of problems with the IBOs not being able to get a good grip on the gun, to be able to run the DA first shot, to be able to sun the safety on the gun. A couple of our Chiefs gave less than a rat's ass, with the question being "Well, they qualified didn't they?".
IMHO grip effects the ability to draw efficiently, and to get those first couple of shots off accurately. I firmly believe that one reason why so many OISs involve coppers missing like crazy is they were set up from the beginning to fail due to the "Well, they qual'd didn't they?" mentality combined with crappy gun fit, and "feelings" instead of hard data from a quality training program that measures things that are important instead of training to the LCD standards and getting troops through the qual.
Last edited by Chuck Haggard; 11-19-2014 at 09:11 AM.
Thanks for all the replies, folks. I've read them with interest, and there's a lot of food for thought.
We took a quick trip to the nearest gun store yesterday and browsed around. They didn't have everything that's been recommended, but they had quite a few of them.
The Shield, according to her, is a good fit and feels good and she doesn't believe she'd have the needing to readjust grip off the draw problems with it. The M&P9c isn't as good but would probably work. With the Shield, though, she expressed the notion that if she's only going to have an eight-round magazine, why not make it an eight-round magazine of .45, and thus the 1911? I believe the hoss behind the counter was considering proposing to her right then and there.
Similar results with the slimline Walthers.
We tried out my P30 at the range again. It seems to be better than the Glock, in that she can get a decent grip from the draw on it and still reach the trigger, but she complained of pain at the base of her thumb after four or five mags and didn't want to keep shooting it.
She liked the fit of a 226 enough that we took the rental gun for a spin, where it promptly crapped the bed and had five malfunctions in the space of three mags, including the last one shot by me to make sure she wasn't doing anything weird. I think it's off the table. I doubt it's representative of all SIGs, but it turned her off.
Guess I better start reading up on what's good in the 1911 world these days.
I'd throw out to try the FNS as well if you guys haven't already.
Ref Shield vs 1911; You're more likely to get a gun that works right now going with the Shield, for half or more of the cost, and with the lower recoil and all that we know the 9mm brings to the table. You can likely get a Shield, holsters, ammo, mags, and a good class all for less than what a quality 1911 is going to cost.
That said, if girl wants a 1911, can conceal it, and shoots it well, then.........
While I agree, I think the effect is larger than that. In the FBI research on deadly force encounters, they noted that guns malfunctioned in the field a lot more than anyone would have expected. Similarly, the NTI reported that they saw a lot more malfunctions than you'd expect to see based on square range shooting.
I think this comes down the effects of getting a bad grip on the gun while trying to rapidly deploy it under high levels of stress and minimal practice. This is compounded by some of the designs of the draw-proof holsters that agencies issue. (John's casual observation - the more scared the admins are of guns, the higher the level of retention - least the guns leap out of the holster and start shooting all by themselves) Some of the level 3 designs require you that you rock back. If there is the least amount of slip while applying that backward motion, the hand will slide down and you get a very bad grip very quickly/easily.
Talk about nasty spiral that is entirely preventable - inadequate training --> gun too large for hand --> draw proof holster --> first round misses due to poor grip --> gun malfunctions due to poor grip.
- It's not the odds, it's the stakes.
- If you aren't dry practicing every week, you're not serious.....
- "Tache-Psyche Effect - a polite way of saying 'You suck.' " - GG
SIG P239 or Springfield EMP?
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