Help with a concept rifle

[ASH556]

I realize this is pistol-forum, but it's also one of the better forums that I know of right now with just the right mix of professional expertise and real world common sense. We also have a bunch of guys (and ladies) here that actually shoot, so that helps too.

In a nutshell, here's what I'm looking for: a .308, not too heavy, short, light, accurate, suppressable. I believe my pistol and a 5.56 suppressed SBR will handle most of my "fighting" (make up whatever scenario you want to) needs. I have formal training on both cabine and pistol from Vickers and I shoot 3 gun monthly to stay proficient and have fun.

In the past I've had two different Remington 700's in .308 with respective custom work done to them. Both were sub-MOA out to 600 yds, which is as far as I ever took them. One had a 24" tube and the other a 20" and both were quite heavy and unwieldy for moving around in the Northeast GA mountains.

Currently I have a Smith & Wesson M&P10. It's alright I guess. I've put a freefloating handguard on it, a Sopmod stock, an AAC Brake/silencer mount, and it currently has a Leupold VX-R Patrol 3-9x40 TMR Firedot sitting in an ADM QD mount. Previously this rifle has also worn a TA11-HG ACOG, a Nightforce 2.5-10x30 mil-dot w/offset Docter, and a Leupold 6.5-20x40 target scope.
Things I like about it: Affordable, semi-auto, takes PMAGS, pretty lightweight.
Things I don't like about it: Long (24" in front of the receiver with the can attached), not super-accurate (1.5 MOA with match ammo), not proven reliable (2 or 3 bolt override malfunctions in 200-300 rounds, I have an H2 on order to see if slowing the bolt down helps since malf's were suppressed).
I'm also not super thrilled with the optic. I like the concept of it (firedot, mil/mil, 30mm tube, turrets), but find the execution somewhat lacking. The turrets move too easily and I'm afraid of them being moved accidentally. There isn't enough distinction between the mil and 1/2 mil hashes in the reticle. The reticle lines are pretty thick making precision difficult even on 9X @ only 100yds.

So, for the value of the rifle and the optic (let's call it $2,000) I'm wondering if I would be better off going back to a bolt gun. Maybe a 16" AAC 700?

Mission drives the gear, right? So here's what I'm wanting it to do:
1) Kill deer 0-400 yards
2) Let me play on targets out to 800, maybe 1K
3) Be accurate and reliable enough to be called upon if bad stuff happens (world ending fantasy, etc).

The buddy that I shoot 3 gun with is current active-duty SF and he tends more towards the long range side of things, was USMC prior to Army and went through sniper school, put himself through 4 or 5 Thunder Ranch long range classes before that. So, it would be nice to have a rig at least mildly capable of shooting with him when we go somewhere longer range.

Given the market and the budget ($2,000) do you think I'd be better of swapping the M&P to get into some kind of bolt rig? I guess when it comes right down to it, the glass is what I'm currently most un-happy with, not the rifle, so maybe lets start there? I just assume that if I went to a bolt gun I could put more of the budget into the glass than the gun, whereas right now that's a little reversed.

When considering glass options, it's a speed/precision tradeoff. I don't want something so geared to precision that I cannot make closeup offhand shots, but neither do I want something like a 1-4, which would make 400+ very difficult.

Sorry for the novel, and thanks in advance to anyone who reads it and responds. I have more thoughts and have tried some other things, but for the sake of space, I'll wait and see where this thing goes.

[okie john]

If you want a light rifle, then the barrel is the obvious place to cut weight, which puts greater emphasis on build quality—bedding, barrel quality, chamber and crown concentricity, etc. A lighter barrel will slow your rate of fire somewhat, but that’s the price you pay.

I’d look at a Kimber Montana in 308 with something like a 1.5-6 variable and good handloads based on the 165-grain Barnes TSX over Varget or RL-15. That load is very accurate and will kill anything in North America. The scoped rifle will probably weigh less than 6.5# loaded and with a sling, and it will balance well so it will be easier to pack in the woods all day. Then add a dedicated long-range optic when you want to be a sniper and you’re done.


Okie John

[ASH556]

Thanks for the reply John! I've given this thing some more thought and I don't think I'm ready to trade the gasser in on a bolt gun just yet. The main point of contention for me is the optics. The VXR Patrol was an attempt to balance speed and precision through the Firedot mechanism. The tradeoff is a scope built to meet a pricepoint, too thick of a reticle for the precision I want, and dangerously exposed turrets.

So I got to thinking:
1) Replace the scope for a simpler design with a little more power. I like Leupold. They make a 4.5-14 with a thin/crisp mil-dot reticle, 30mm tube, side focus, and capped turrets. It's pretty affordable too!
2) Put a Crimson Trace laser on the front of the handguard. Instead of trying to force the primary optic to handle dual roles, get one that gives me the precision I want.

I've tried the offset MRDS thing and don't really care for it. But, for low light and/or inside 50 yds, the laser should do the job just fine. Just a for-instance (this actually happened): Walking out of the deer woods well after dark and I hear something behind me. I stop and shine a flashlight and all I can see is a pair of glowing eyes. Is it a small deer or a coyote? I don't know, so I turn around and b-line for the truck as quick as possible. I should have had a WML on the rifle and I do now, but even at that, a magified optic would be tougher to use with a WML than a laser. I think I want to try it out.

[okie john]

Thanks for the reply John! I've given this thing some more thought and I don't think I'm ready to trade the gasser in on a bolt gun just yet. The main point of contention for me is the optics. The VXR Patrol was an attempt to balance speed and precision through the Firedot mechanism. The tradeoff is a scope built to meet a pricepoint, too thick of a reticle for the precision I want, and dangerously exposed turrets.

So I got to thinking:
1) Replace the scope for a simpler design with a little more power. I like Leupold. They make a 4.5-14 with a thin/crisp mil-dot reticle, 30mm tube, side focus, and capped turrets. It's pretty affordable too!
2) Put a Crimson Trace laser on the front of the handguard. Instead of trying to force the primary optic to handle dual roles, get one that gives me the precision I want.

I've tried the offset MRDS thing and don't really care for it. But, for low light and/or inside 50 yds, the laser should do the job just fine. Just a for-instance (this actually happened): Walking out of the deer woods well after dark and I hear something behind me. I stop and shine a flashlight and all I can see is a pair of glowing eyes. Is it a small deer or a coyote? I don't know, so I turn around and b-line for the truck as quick as possible. I should have had a WML on the rifle and I do now, but even at that, a magified optic would be tougher to use with a WML than a laser. I think I want to try it out.

I have no experience with the scopes you're talking about, so I can't comment on them.

As for the laser and WML, be sure to check the game laws where you hunt. In Washington, it's illegal to hunt with artificial lights or lasers. (I'm hunting with a Glock this year, and the X300 stays in camp--I don't want it in my possession in case a game warden decides to go through my gear.) We also have legal shooting hours, and woe be unto him what pops a cap in the woods outside of those times. I suspect that our wardens might let someone slide on the shooting hours if they're dragging a coyote or a hog out of the woods in high summer, but so many people misbehave during deer and elk season that they're much less likely to allow anyone the benefit of the doubt on anything. But things may be different in the South.

Then there are the practical aspects of hunting in low light. It can be done safely and ethically, but it's much harder to get a positive ID on your target so you don't shoot a fawn or someone's lost bird dog (which could end up costing you some painful dental work and several thousand dollars to replace the dog). Then you have the additional complications of making make sure that you can hit your target solidly enough to kill it quickly. Then there's the issue of knowing your backstop, and so on...

Going for low probability shots is OK in competition but not in the game fields.


Okie John

[ASH556]

I have no experience with the scopes you're talking about, so I can't comment on them.

As for the laser and WML, be sure to check the game laws where you hunt. In Washington, it's illegal to hunt with artificial lights or lasers. (I'm hunting with a Glock this year, and the X300 stays in camp--I don't want it in my possession in case a game warden decides to go through my gear.) We also have legal shooting hours, and woe be unto him what pops a cap in the woods outside of those times. I suspect that our wardens might let someone slide on the shooting hours if they're dragging a coyote or a hog out of the woods in high summer, but so many people misbehave during deer and elk season that they're much less likely to allow anyone the benefit of the doubt on anything. But things may be different in the South.

Then there are the practical aspects of hunting in low light. It can be done safely and ethically, but it's much harder to get a positive ID on your target so you don't shoot a fawn or someone's lost bird dog (which could end up costing you some painful dental work and several thousand dollars to replace the dog). Then you have the additional complications of making make sure that you can hit your target solidly enough to kill it quickly. Then there's the issue of knowing your backstop, and so on...

Going for low probability shots is OK in competition but not in the game fields.


Okie John

To be clear, the laser/WML isn't for helping me hunt it low light. Legal hunting light in Georgia ends 30 min after sunset and I don't hunt after that. But, some of my spots are way back in the woods and if I come across a coyote or bobcat and it's a self defense situation, I'd like to have them as an option for using the rifle vs a pistol.

[okie john]

To be clear, the laser/WML isn't for helping me hunt it low light. Legal hunting light in Georgia ends 30 min after sunset and I don't hunt after that. But, some of my spots are way back in the woods and if I come across a coyote or bobcat and it's a self defense situation, I'd like to have them as an option for using the rifle vs a pistol.

In Washington, I wouldn't to into the woods during deer season with a WML in my possession, much less mounted on a rifle.

But I guess that's between you and the game warden.


Okie John

[ASH556]

In Washington, I wouldn't to into the woods during deer season with a WML in my possession, much less mounted on a rifle.

But I guess that's between you and the game warden.


Okie John

Yeah, I guess it's a little different down here. Completely legal:

Untitled by ASH556, on Flickr

[secondstoryguy]

The Kimber Montana is an excellent choice but I think the barrel OD is too small to mount a can. I used a Montana for years when I lived in a more mountainous state. Mine would shoot into 3/4" with hand-loads. It wore a 1.75-6X32 Leupold and came in at just at 6lbs or so. My dream gun would be something like a Kimber Montana with a lightweight barrel that increases in size at the muzzle to provide a good base for surpressor mounting. I would also like it to have iron back up sights.

I built a few Winchester Mod 70s out of the older classic stainless line that has controlled feed actions. They wear Mcmillan stocks, have iron sights and Ching slings added and the stainless has been coated black. This is what I use now and the additional weight over the Kimber makes them a little more pleasant to plink and practice with(the Kimber Montana is actually pretty pleasant to shoot for a 6lb rifle).

[TumblinDown]

Not my area, really, but I've heard good things about the SWFA SS 3-9x42 scope.

[LittleLebowski]

I'd do a 20" AAC-SD or other Remington but I would pay careful attention to the choice of stock. Stock weight can widely vary. There are quality, lightweight hunting stocks. I'd also not put a monster scope on there; a Nightforce or Vortex 2.5-10x should do you just fine unless you're hunting on the plains. Run a lightweight .308 load like the 155gr bullets for distance shooting. There's so many .308 loads available that you can try many and see what works in the rifle instead of handloading. As you shoot the rifle and if you grow to like it, you can invest in having the action trued and blueprinted to squeeze some more accuracy out of it.

I'm not a fan of hunting with a .308 AR. For me and many others, the bolt gun is lighter and much easier to shoot well.

These are my personal opinions; I freely admit that I haven't tried the high end .308 ARs and I'm also a bolt gun guy through and through for hunting and long distance shooting.