CCW & Mental Illness - Advise Needed

[Josh Runkle]

I'm not LE or a lawyer, so I can't speak to the legal side, but I can share my own personal experience:

I am getting married in May, and my fiancé's brother is severely bi-polar. I have dated my fiancé for about 3 years now, and, she lived with her brother for all of our relationship until about two weeks ago. So, I have seen him very, very regularly for about 3 years. I am good friends with him, and I love him and already consider him family, even though it won't be "official" until next year.

Understanding people who are bi-polar was very hard for me at first, as I knew very little about it in the beginning, and many aspects of life regarding mental illness made me very uneasy. When my fiancé and I started dating, the first very odd aspect of everything was that she and her family asked me to never bring a firearm inside of her house. This had little to do with their personal beliefs of firearms, and everything to do with her brother. This made me uneasy, as I am armed nearly at all other times, and it gave me the impression that he must be absolutely psychotic. Over the years, I took a lot of continuing education as a paramedic focusing on mental illnesses, and I was able to watch and interact with him and as we became much closer, understand his perspective.

The first thing that I have learned is that mental illnesses are still very poorly understood. Bi-Polar disorder may actually be 7 or 8 different, separate and distinct illnesses, yet, they are all lumped into the same category. So, it is really hard to say that one person who is mildly sad, not even quite depressed, should not be allowed to have a firearm, and separate that from the person who is off the wall, bat-$&@% crazy, because they may use the same term to distinguish between the two.

Secondly, the mental health profession really does not want to see all people with mental illnesses locked away, instead they hope that people with mental illnesses can be medicated to a point where they can function somewhat normally in society. Aside from a few years of balancing out the exact levels of those meds, many people with mental illnesses eventually can live a completely normal life when taking the medications. There are two problems that usually occur: the biggest one is that a person is completely fine for a year or two and then they wonder, "What if I don't need all of these medications anymore? What if I'm fine now?" And then they quit taking the medication for a while. Additionally, some medications have severe side effects, like making you sleep 16 hours every day. This causes issues with living a normal social life, creates new anxiety in the patient, and also leads to that first question of making them wonder if they can stop taking the meds.

Third, my personal experience with my soon to be brother in law, is that he is mildly socially awkward, but essentially completely normal when he takes his meds. However, if he purposefully or accidentally misses a medication, it causes severe problems. Typically, he is completely normal 360 days a year, suddenly severely depressed (like, call 911, he's gonna kill himself) one day a year, and suddenly outrageously manic, like bat-$&@% crazy, about 2-3 days a year. There is rarely much of an indication beforehand, and he is otherwise completely normal. He is never mildly depressed and never mildly manic. Usually, too much or too little of a drug is the culprit. Now, as far as CCW goes, he's not really interested in guns, and his family has such a lockdown, that they wouldn't let him have one. Despite the fact that he is completely normal 99% of the time, his family has a lockdown on all of his movements and when and where he goes, despite the fact that he's 28 years old. However, there is nothing to prevent him, legally speaking from buying a firearm or getting a CCW permit. The doctors have hope that people with the illness can interact normally in society if they take their meds, and the legislature wants to protect people from having their rights stripped away if they were accused of having an illness, but nothing was proven.

I would try to speak to the person's psychologist/psychiatrist and see what can be done. The doctor could fear that the person is a danger to the public, and then place them in an involuntary hold, which may bar them from having a firearm.

[HCM]

Depending on the details their substance abuse history, your relative may be prohibited from possessing firearms under 18 USC 922(g)(3) as an unlawful user of controlled substances.

http://www.nssf.org/share/PDF/ATFOpenLetter092111.pdf

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922

[Irelander]

I'm not LE or a lawyer, so I can't speak to the legal side, but I can share my own personal experience:

I am getting married in May, and my fiancé's brother is severely bi-polar. I have dated my fiancé for about 3 years now, and, she lived with her brother for all of our relationship until about two weeks ago. So, I have seen him very, very regularly for about 3 years. I am good friends with him, and I love him and already consider him family, even though it won't be "official" until next year.

Understanding people who are bi-polar was very hard for me at first, as I knew very little about it in the beginning, and many aspects of life regarding mental illness made me very uneasy. When my fiancé and I started dating, the first very odd aspect of everything was that she and her family asked me to never bring a firearm inside of her house. This had little to do with their personal beliefs of firearms, and everything to do with her brother. This made me uneasy, as I am armed nearly at all other times, and it gave me the impression that he must be absolutely psychotic. Over the years, I took a lot of continuing education as a paramedic focusing on mental illnesses, and I was able to watch and interact with him and as we became much closer, understand his perspective.

The first thing that I have learned is that mental illnesses are still very poorly understood. Bi-Polar disorder may actually be 7 or 8 different, separate and distinct illnesses, yet, they are all lumped into the same category. So, it is really hard to say that one person who is mildly sad, not even quite depressed, should not be allowed to have a firearm, and separate that from the person who is off the wall, bat-$&@% crazy, because they may use the same term to distinguish between the two.

Secondly, the mental health profession really does not want to see all people with mental illnesses locked away, instead they hope that people with mental illnesses can be medicated to a point where they can function somewhat normally in society. Aside from a few years of balancing out the exact levels of those meds, many people with mental illnesses eventually can live a completely normal life when taking the medications. There are two problems that usually occur: the biggest one is that a person is completely fine for a year or two and then they wonder, "What if I don't need all of these medications anymore? What if I'm fine now?" And then they quit taking the medication for a while. Additionally, some medications have severe side effects, like making you sleep 16 hours every day. This causes issues with living a normal social life, creates new anxiety in the patient, and also leads to that first question of making them wonder if they can stop taking the meds.

Third, my personal experience with my soon to be brother in law, is that he is mildly socially awkward, but essentially completely normal when he takes his meds. However, if he purposefully or accidentally misses a medication, it causes severe problems. Typically, he is completely normal 360 days a year, suddenly severely depressed (like, call 911, he's gonna kill himself) one day a year, and suddenly outrageously manic, like bat-$&@% crazy, about 2-3 days a year. There is rarely much of an indication beforehand, and he is otherwise completely normal. He is never mildly depressed and never mildly manic. Usually, too much or too little of a drug is the culprit. Now, as far as CCW goes, he's not really interested in guns, and his family has such a lockdown, that they wouldn't let him have one. Despite the fact that he is completely normal 99% of the time, his family has a lockdown on all of his movements and when and where he goes, despite the fact that he's 28 years old. However, there is nothing to prevent him, legally speaking from buying a firearm or getting a CCW permit. The doctors have hope that people with the illness can interact normally in society if they take their meds, and the legislature wants to protect people from having their rights stripped away if they were accused of having an illness, but nothing was proven.

I would try to speak to the person's psychologist/psychiatrist and see what can be done. The doctor could fear that the person is a danger to the public, and then place them in an involuntary hold, which may bar them from having a firearm.

Thank you for sharing your experience. It sounds very similar to mine.

This person has owned firearms since a young age and did not have any indication of mental illness back then. I used to shoot a lot with this individual. I am not necessarily saying they should not be allowed to own firearms. They haven't purchased a gun in years but I did expect that if they ever tried to buy one now that the background check would block the purchase. Red flags went up in my mind when I heard about this person getting a CCW. I assumed that since the police already confiscated some firearms due to an incident that they would not be interested in approving their CCW but I do understand it is a flawed system and mental illness is very complex and misunderstood.

[45dotACP]

DISCLAIMER: I'm not against the 2nd Amendment at all!

Unfortunately, with everybody scared out of their wits about HIPAA, the mental health system is not linked very efficiently to the legal system. Even though some states have "duty to warn", people slip through the cracks. If he was admitted into an inpatient psychiatric unit as a suicide risk, whether or not it is disqualifying...he should not be allowed to own a firearm. It's a very significant risk factor for males suffering from depression. If he's been arrested before, has substance abuse issues, and frequent police contacts, I'd agree with Sensei...it sounds like he has some other issues. Though Bi-Polar depression is reason enough. They sink to some very severe lows and having guns around can be a big suicide risk for people with that particular illness. Again, I'm all for gun ownership, but for mentally ill males, having guns in the house is a risk factor for suicide. Yes, they may attempt suicide by other means. Sorry, I have no solution.

I think it's important for everybody to know, Nearly 1 in 3 Americans suffer from mental illness. Everything from Generalized Anxiety to full blown Schizophrenia or Schizoaffective disorders. Some are at risk for suicide, others have no risk. It is foolish to say "the mentally ill should not have guns." because not all forms of mental illness are lethal.

Either way, I'd tell the sheriff that you don't want to be named, but that you feel he slipped through the cracks. Sorry for the family troubles. For what it's worth, I'm generally against people who have frequent run ins with the law (outside of traffic stops) being armed too.

[TGS]

FWIW, I've reclaimed a firearm from a family member following mental instability.

I take the RKBA very seriously, but I also take responsibility seriously. After a certain point of perceived need for action in any situation is tripped, I become very brusque and really don't give a shit about hurting other people's feelings, so I understand this may be more of a touchy subject for most people.

If you have to ask yourself whether something is wrong, then something is most likely wrong. Do what you feel is right....The right thing is not always the easy thing. That statement can go either way, so go with your gut.

[Fire-Medic]

Depending on the details their substance abuse history, your relative may be prohibited from possessing firearms under 18 USC 922(g)(3) as an unlawful user of controlled substances.

This is what I was going to ask, if anonymously it was made aware to the authorities that there is substance abuse going on or any f the arrest relate to that a simple drug screening by the authorities would be all that is needed to revoke said carry permit.

Either way if it was me I would say something, but definitely find a way for it not to impact me or my family being so close to the issue.

Good luck and keep us posted.

[Drifting Fate]

I guess I'm a libertarian (small "l"), and believe some risk comes with a free society.

They gave him a CCW, let the government take it away on their own. To do otherwise is to buy into the nanny society of the government protecting us from ourselves.

In any given circumstance, there will be a certain percentage of applicants who might not be otherwise approved, but better a certain percentage approved who aren't "worthy" vs denying a certain percentage who are. And, then, you have the 2A which says nothing about mental health and assumes a certain amount of ineptitude amongst the populace.

[BaiHu]

I guess I'm a libertarian (small "l"), and believe some risk comes with a free society.

They gave him a CCW, let the government take it away on their own. To do otherwise is to buy into the nanny society of the government protecting us from ourselves.

In any given circumstance, there will be a certain percentage of applicants who might not be otherwise approved, but better a certain percentage approved who aren't "worthy" vs denying a certain percentage who are. And, then, you have the 2A which says nothing about mental health and assumes a certain amount of ineptitude amongst the populace.

I think the trap with your statement is the following:

If we the people cannot moderate ourselves by doing the right thing, like the OP, then you will have more government, not less. Personal responsibility should extend to your immediate surroundings too.

[cclaxton]

It seems to me the primary issue here is getting an intervention to treat the mental illness and substance abuse. The CCW and removal of firearms will be a natural consequence. I would be calling my mental health agencies for my jurisdiction and asking them what it takes to get an involuntary intervention. Even if the firearms are removed, he can use something else as a lethal weapon.
Cody

[calibased]

You don't give enough details op. Unless he's saying he's going to hurt people, I think you should back off.