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Thread: Is a vehicle cover or concealment? It depends.

  1. #21
    Very Pro Dentist Chuck Haggard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Crap. I'll fix it when I get home.
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  2. #22
    Site Supporter MD7305's Avatar
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    I've seen that bullets can do unpredictable things in cars. The first time I saw buckshot and slugs vs. a vehicle I was shocked by how well they penetrated. In reference to engine blocks, keep in mind that's not a very large piece of cover, especially for some folks, but it's better than nothing and I'd take it over any other part of the car. The reason I mention that is in training I see folks gravitate to the front of the he car to utilize the engine block for cover but they sometimes fail to realize the engine block only accounts for a fraction of the space inside the engine compartment.
    Last edited by MD7305; 10-21-2014 at 05:45 PM. Reason: Clarification

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by MD7305 View Post
    I've seen that bullets can do unpredictable things in cars. The first time I saw buckshot and slugs vs. a vehicle I was shocked by how well they penetrated. In reference to engine blocks, keep in mind that's not a very large piece of cover, especially for some folks, but it's better than nothing and I'd take it over any other part of the car. The reason I mention that is in training I see folks gravitate to the front of the he car to utilize the engine block for cover but they sometimes fail to realize the engine block only accounts for a fraction of the space inside the engine compartment.
    Some casual knowledge of cars is helpful here also. I would NOT want to be the guy who takes cover in the front end of a Toyota Previa minivan ,or a Subaru BRZ.
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  4. #24
    Site Supporter MD7305's Avatar
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    That BRZs pancake-ish boxer motor location might be an issue. Something to think about.

  5. #25
    Site Supporter Hambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MD7305 View Post
    I've seen that bullets can do unpredictable things in cars. The first time I saw buckshot and slugs vs. a vehicle I was shocked by how well they penetrated. In reference to engine blocks, keep in mind that's not a very large piece of cover, especially for some folks, but it's better than nothing and I'd take it over any other part of the car. The reason I mention that is in training I see folks gravitate to the front of the he car to utilize the engine block for cover but they sometimes fail to realize the engine block only accounts for a fraction of the space inside the engine compartment.
    My first pickup had an inline six cylinder that covered a lot of space from the firewall forward, but it was the only thing under the hood. Now my car has a 4 cyl that is mounted parallel to the front axle, but there's a ton of other crap in the engine compartment. Either way, it's still the best bet for cover.

  6. #26
    Oils and Lotions SME
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    What about a Prius or other vehicle with large batteries? I would bet the batteries would stop some rounds, but it may still suck to be in the area.

  7. #27
    It's worth noting that more and more cars are coming with laminated glass in the passenger windows. Previously you'd only find it in the windshield, and the other windows would be made of tempered glass, which isn't nearly as tough a barrier from my understanding. My '08 Jeep GC has laminated glass all the way around as an option, and many vehicles now have it as standard for the sound-deadening and safety benefits (although there is the disadvantage of them being harder to break from the inside as well if you need to get out in a hurry).

    Normal laminated glass certainly wouldn't be enough to stop common pistol and rifle rounds, but you could have significant deflection and performance issues (lack of expansion, etc.).

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by cclaxton View Post
    In shooting targets inside or through vehicles in IDPA matches, I have rarely found a round penetrates to the other side.
    I have to wonder what percentage of those rounds are gamer loads, ie soft shooting, minimum power factor reloads.


    I was in a class last year where each of the students got to shoot a car. More than half of those rounds went all the way through - in the passenger side door, out the driver side door. For the heaver rounds (.40 and .45) it was probably more like 75%.

    Rounds coming in at an angle wound have additional stuff to penetrate (seats, dash, etc) but it's still more or less a coin toss. The only parts of the car that I would even vaguely consider "cover" vs "concealment" would be the engine block, disk brakes, and (in the case of the above mentioned class, when one of the test rounds severed the passenger side door latch mechanism, which we then attempted to unlatch ballistically) the door latch.
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  9. #29
    Very Pro Dentist Chuck Haggard's Avatar
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    Bullet construction makes a huge difference.

    Bullets like the various premium bonded rounds, Gold Dot, Ranger Bonded, etc., or monolithic bullets like the Barnes, penetrate very well. I have noted some of the various FMJs can work well, others not so much.

    NATO ball and the 124gr bullets being used in the 124gr Lawman and Federal AE are pretty tough in my observation. On the other hand, the 230gr FMJ used in the .45acp Federal Champion frags badly.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aray View Post
    What about a Prius or other vehicle with large batteries? I would bet the batteries would stop some rounds, but it may still suck to be in the area.
    I've watched a couple big lithium car batteries go up in flames after crashes, seeing how much trouble the fire department had with those, I don't want to be anywhere near one if the batteries are at risk of being compromised. BTW, these were pretty bad wrecks, and even before the fire the cars were totaled beyond any doubt. Lithium car batteries are mounted as low as possible and unless the cars on it's side, probably won't do much good.

    Laminated side windows are bad medicine in a side impact car crash.

    The higher in the suspect is in relationship to the car, the less effective the car is at stopping rounds. From my own non-scientific testing there needs to be a 10-12ft stand off distance from a car to avoid rounds that have ricocheted off of a flat surface. Skipping a bullet into the brain pan is a game ender. Somewhere Paul Howe has a pretty write up on this and does a really good job on the pitfalls and considerations on using cars for cover/concealment.

    Edited: A standoff distance would be bad if the suspect is elevated.
    Last edited by czech6; 10-24-2014 at 01:21 PM.

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