"Carry" vs. "Combat" Handguns

[GardoneVT]

Lots of catching up from my last post, all good stuff.

Over the years, I've tried a number of "small" guns for easier CC with summer clothing, including a J-frame and a Colt Mustang .380 (which IMO was really a POS). Neither of those were satisfactory for me as I was unable to shoot either even remotely as well as a larger handgun.

My first Glock was a 23. Call me a girly, but for some reason the .40 didn't seem to recoil any less than a .45 and I still did not feel I shot it well enough.

The 23 went in favor of a 17C, which has been the sweet spot for me. I even ran it through a PPC course and though points were dropped vs. my S&W Model 14 shooting wadcutters, I was pleasantly surprised at how well I was able to do with it at the longer 25 and 50 yard distances (with Heinie SlantPro sights) using 124 grain FMJ ammo. When shooting IDPA I have a non-ported barrel to keep it game legal.

Because I have small hands, the Walther Police Pistol Slim fits my girly mitts very well. What has amazed me about it is how well I can shoot it and based on all the reading I have done, I am far from alone in that assessment. The PPS is the first easy-to-CC handgun that I have owned that I can shoot well, giving up little-to-nothing to the G17 in the critical 3 to 5 yard range of the typical self defense encounter. I also believe that from a retention standpoint, the PPS has a very considerable edge.

In a typical up-close-and-over-fast self defense scenario, I do not feel disadvantaged in any way with the PPS. But if it was a more prolonged situation beyond the typical 3 to 5 yard SD engagement, I know the G17 would gain me some major advantage over the PPS. Thus back to my original question but with a bit of rephrasing: do you carry an easy-to-conceal handgun that you feel 100% confident with to defend yourself, but also have a larger/more capable/higher capacity handgun that is also set up for CC for when you can effectively conceal it, OR do you strictly carry one handgun regardless of the season or any other (real or perceived) circumstances?

Thanks again to all for your continued indulgence.

One, people are not very observant. This is why I have carried a large frame handgun since starting CCW , and have yet to be made. Most folks are too busy snapchatting to notice the bulge at your 4 o'clock position.

Two;Anton Chirgurh is out there. His character may be a work of fiction, but the existence of such people in society is not. Do you want the only tool standing between a trained, cold blooded predator and the attendant demise of your family and yourself to be a seven shot pocket filler?

Three;statistics when it comes to firearms are nearly worthless when it comes to individual protection. Stats say most people will never need to reach for their guns more then once in a lifetime. Ive had to do it twice:there are folks both in and out of uniform who've passed that figure long ago.

Four:ill drag out the 'without rule of law ' card, because it has direct relevance to your question. If "calamity X " happens, youre unlikely to be at home when it does. The LA Riots, the earthquakes of the region, etc all happened while people went about their ordinary business. You can see where this is going; in the event of regional instability where your home is either destroyed or unreachable, your defensive collection will begin and end with the piece on your person. You wont be in envious shape with a typical full size pistol during a riot or other calamatous event , yet youll be exponentially better off then if you had a 'pocket friendly' , ballistically inferior pocket gun to stand between you and the criminal element when the police are unavailable.

Hope that gives you some guidance on the matter.

[Salamander]

After first getting my CCW I went through a trial phase to learn what worked for me and what didn’t. Pretty quickly I sold some of those earlier guns and kept others to use at the range just for fun, but don't carry them.

A full size gun is just a bit of a stretch for my professional office time, possible to conceal but requiring some care. With a compact I can pretty much forget about it and not worry. Considering the kinds of meetings I need to attend and the kinds of people who are at them, that's important to me.

I've come to prefer simple, and for carry have standardized on the P2000 platform... two in 9mm LEM, and one in .357 Sig/.40 S&W for backwoods use. One of the 9mm guns gets 90-95% of the use. I'd be almost as happy with a G19, given a little more training time with that platform.

[Grizzly21]

I'm guillty of carrying different platforms from time to time but have come to realize the advantages of carrying a pistol with the same type of operating system all the time so I'm sticking with the Glock 17/19 off duty and my issued M&P at work. I'm issued a M&P 45 at work and carry a Glock 26 for backup. When off duty I always have my 642 on me regardless of attire. I normally carry my Glock 17 however I just ordered a new holster for my Glock 19 and will start carrying it once the holster arrives. I also carry the Glock 26 off duty in an ankle holster when my attire and activities permit me to do so. Changes in issued gun may be coming in the furture and with that being said I will acquire a duplicate of the new platform if I dont already have one to carry off duty. We don't plan on getting into a shootout when we leave home but we want to be as prepared as practically possible.

[ReverendMeat]

When I started carrying, it was a J-frame. Couple years later now, I've been alternating metal frame TDA pistols, the smallest of which is a SIG P239 (which is almost the same size as a Glock 19). It helps that I don't have to carry in a "NPE" work environment though.

[rob_s]

Tom Givens student stats;

90% were 3 to 5 yards. Three out of 64 occurred at or beyond 15 yards. Two occurred at contact distance. All the rest between 3 and 7 yards.

Number of rounds fired ranged from 2 to 3 in a shooting (one individual firing) to nearly always fully emptying the magazine in gunfights (multiple individuals shooting)- Again, this mirrors what we see. Our average number of shots is about four although we have had shootings involving 8, 11, and 12 rounds fired by one individual.

See post #287 - http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.p...-killed/page29

I'm comfortable being well prepared for the most likely. If a band of ISIS terrorists show up with AKs blazing, I'll be running away with everyone else.

I find it interesting that people will use this data to support one thing, but ignore the larger data (the extreme rarity of finding oneself in such a situation).

[Hambo]

I'm comfortable being well prepared for the most likely.

It's just my observation, but you tend to ask questions for which you already believe you have the answer.

Your G17 would work in those statistically likely situations AND would make you feel more comfortable in an outlier situation. Somebody here has a signature line that says "it's not the odds, it's the stakes." I place a high value on my continued existence, and that's why I carry enough guns and ammo for the worst case, not the best.

[John Hearne]

I find it interesting that people will use this data to support one thing, but ignore the larger data (the extreme rarity of finding oneself in such a situation).

It's not the odds, it's the stakes.

[TCinVA]

I find it interesting that people will use this data to support one thing, but ignore the larger data (the extreme rarity of finding oneself in such a situation).

Tom himself has said on a number of occasions that every robbery, aggravated assault, rape, and murder is an opportunity for the justified use of lethal force. In 2011 that stuff happened to just under 2 million people. The overwhelming majority of the victims were unarmed.

The need to defend oneself from violent attack isn't quite the statistical rarity many people think.

I also tend to take issue with the idea of "SHTF" because it seems to me that if somebody is threatening you with sufficient harm that you have the need to kill them to preserve your existence, the S has definitely HTF in your world.

When someone targets you as the victim of a violent crime you are experiencing a disruption of social order...and the stats tell us that you are largely on your own. You have to deal with the violent actor by yourself and if injured in the attack you will have to deal with the injury on your own at least for several minutes. A major arterial bleed in the extremities will kill faster than even the most impressive average response time by EMS.

In Aurora EMS didn't get to where they could do some good for almost 30 minutes...and it's beyond question that some people are dead as a direct result of that.

[Hambo]

It's not the odds, it's the stakes.

Credit to John Hearne in my post above.

[Beat Trash]

I'm guillty of carrying different platforms from time to time but have come to realize the advantages of carrying a pistol with the same type of operating system all the time so I'm sticking with the Glock 17/19 off duty and my issued M&P at work. I'm issued a M&P 45 at work and carry a Glock 26 for backup. When off duty I always have my 642 on me regardless of attire. I normally carry my Glock 17 however I just ordered a new holster for my Glock 19 and will start carrying it once the holster arrives. I also carry the Glock 26 off duty in an ankle holster when my attire and activities permit me to do so. Changes in issued gun may be coming in the furture and with that being said I will acquire a duplicate of the new platform if I dont already have one to carry off duty. We don't plan on getting into a shootout when we leave home but we want to be as prepared as practically possible.

I highly agree with the parts in bold. I also commend your off-duty choices. (Let me know how the new transition goes for you guys)

As previously stated, If I could predict ahead of time when and where I would get into a critical incident, I'd stay home that day.

Any time you have someone legitimacy trying to kill you, and you are forced to use deadly force to survive, I think that could qualify as your own personal "combat". With this in mind, why would you consider anything that would limit your ability? There are too many guns out there such as a Glock 19 that provide an adequate blend of performance and ease of concealment/carry.

To assume that your incident will occur within 3-5 feet, with just one assailant, and you can even predict how many of your rounds will make contact, and how quickly the assailant will sub come to said rounds is astounding. I might ask you to pick out my next Mega Millions lotto numbers for me.

A few years ago, my agency did a 5 year study of all shots fired by officers, at human and animals. Similar to the one NYPD produces. Our numbers were close to NYPD's. If I remember correctly, the total number of rounds fired was 8, the average distance was 11.2 yards (not feet). Not all incidents where civilians are confronted with an armed individual involve a "Lone Gunman". In today's world, they tend to travel with friends, and those friends tend to be armed also.

A while ago, Dr Roberts had a topic going on why he felt the Glock 19 was the new J-Frame. It was a very enlightened read. I agreed with Gary's assessment then and I still do.