FNG- Hardware Questions.........

[Kimura]

You're the first person to say this so I find it interesting, part of the reason I posted.

How detrimental to training would it be if you SD trained with lets say a G19 and simultaneously shot Comp with something else whether also striker fired or not.........?

I'm not sure I'm qualified to answer this question for anyone besides myself. For me personally, I think I shoot better period simply because I go out and shoot more as opposed to not shooting because I'm tired of shooting X firearm. Second, I think fundamentals are fundamentals and carry across different platforms; but, what I think you do lose are the small intricacies of the way one pistol handles/shoots, though what percentage that is I don't really know. I've heard it put that one can get into the 85%-90% range of ability across multiple platforms versus 100% for one, but I can't really tell you if that's true. I think it probably depends on the person and how much they actually shoot.

To me it's whatever will get you out there to shoot. Because it isn't just about drills, it's also about enjoyment otherwise you'll quit doing it. People are busy, if shooting isn't a necessity and you're not enjoying it, what's the motivation. Even for some that it's a job related skill won't go out and practice because they don't enjoy it enough. That's just my opinion. Whatever you decide, find some joy in it.

[Father of 3]

Would you consider giving the M&P another shot (pun intended)? I am not certain what your unpleasant experience was, but I had an early model that suffered from accuracy issues as determined by multiple shooters and a rest. I too went the Glock route. However a recent exposure to a friends M&P with the Apex FSS brought me back to the days of shooting my stepdads Colt 1911 when I was a kid. For me it pointed better, mitigated recoil better, and I shot better with it than I ever have with any Glocks I have owned (17 Gen3, 17 Gen4, 19 Gen4, and 26 Gen3). I still own a G17 Gen3 but am seriously giving consideration to a M&P with Apex internals as my next gun or off loading the Glock to fund it.

Another option as suggested would be the BHP. You already have one that is a keep sake. Why not have one to compliment it that you can run the snot out of? My BHP is also from my F-I-L and will be handed down to my son so it doesn't get as much use as I would like due to wanting to preserve it. As an alternative to the M&P I have considered doing what I just suggested above to you as it really is a sweet shooter. The manual of arms is similar to a 1911 but in 9mm goodness.

Best of luck to you!

[45dotACP]

I think Todd posted something a while back about the "Defense of the TDA" and mentioned that if you can shoot a TDA gun well, the skill tends to translate. I personally like having various types of guns because they're fun to have around. I wouldn't consider my MKII Hi Power with its tiny nub sights to be a serious defensive pistol. After it takes a trip to Novak and gets a new set of sights however....it may just put the Glock in the back of the safe.

I see it this way. Most 9mm pistols out there today will be reliable (or at least reliable enough). Most reliable guns out there will be more accurate than the average shooter is capable of shooting. And here's the kicker, most of these different trigger actions (DA/SA, DAO, LEM, DAK, SAO, and SFA) are able to be mastered with practice. Practice means I get to go shoot more. All this considered, why would I settle for a gun that looks ugly to my eyes or feels uncomfortable in my hands?

Sure, I get that Glocks are great. I'd have no qualms if I were told tomorrow that the only gun I could have was a glock 19. I shoot my G34 quite well, but I had to work to get to that point. Sure, I might be flushing all that hard work down the drain if I switched to shooting a Beretta, 1911, or a P35, but I doubt that. I don't think that if you switch platforms that you automatically lose the ability to shoot or even that you lose the ability to shoot well. I prefer my 1911, but in the same range trip, I can put the 1911 down, pick up my Beretta 92, chamber/decock and hit a headshot on demand at 25 yards with the first DA shot. Sure, maybe you need to re familiarize yourself with a safety, but proper fundamentals are proper because you do them properly.

Orrr, you could look at it the other way I look at it: If today, I switched my Glock for my Beretta, it would have no effect on how well I shoot the J-frame that will most likely be on me

[Fire-Medic]

Headed to the Range!

[JonInWA]

This is what led me to CZs, both the 75 and the newer P polymer series.

I tried like hell to shoot well with striker fired pistols. I hated them both (S&W and Glock) so much in secret that I basically carried revolvers more than anything else because I could (and can) shoot K frames like they grew out of my arm.

Then I tried a CZ P-07 and it was a revelation. That led me to the classic 75, and with both I am doing the best shooting I have ever done. The ease of shooting a CZ 75 accurately AND fast is just unbelievable.

I've had other DA/SA pistols before (S&W and SIG) but nothing compares to the brilliant ergonomics of the CZ 75.

Gabe, I strongly suggest you do not overlook the P-09 during your range trip. CZs, while all the rage in USPSA, are far more than range toys. They are first and foremost fighting pistols/

I have two very experienced shooting friends that I have the utmost respect for that recently switched from Smith & Wesson M&P Pros to CZ P-09s, and immediately performed pretty spectacularly with them. Interestingly, their M&P issues weren't accuracy issues, but other M&P reoccurring component quality control issues.

If I was switching platforms from Glock, the Cee Zed polymers would be pretty high on my short list of possible contenders.

Best, Jon

[JustOneGun]

My advice is simple: Try to dispassionately/objectively determine which platform(s) you shoot the best with, and then concentrate on them. Have the objectivity to realize that there may be some that fall into your "highly desirable" category that you don't do well with, or would take an inordinate or disproportionate amount of your resources to get to where you want to go with them. Then I'd make a decision to commit to one platform for a full year, and then re-assess as necessary.

Best, Jon

Yes, I think this is great advice. When I first shot the glock if felt terrible in my hand. It fit just fine just didn't give me the warm and fuzzy of the Sig. After just who range sessions I saw a marked improvement in my shooting. I never looked back. It's what works for you, not what feels good.

Whether Self Defense or Competition jumping from platform to platform just delays things. Stick to one and get all the easy gains from training that you can. Then if you switch try to make it an informed one and stick to that one for a year. And if you ever switch again, well you are a tinkerer. There's no hope for you...

[BoppaBear]

Hey F-M, good to see you here. You've definitely experienced a wide range of sidearms. For the record, I'd consider gtmtnbiker's suggestion. The VP is an excellent pistol, so far in my time with one. Albeit I got to HK via a long affair with Sig, and have always preferred DA/SA with a decocker and no safety...back in April I took the V1 plunge, and am very happy with them as carry guns.

VPs are hard to beat for striker-fired, though.

IMHO, any instructor that calls you out for your weapon, isn't necessarily in the right job........as long as you shoot said weapon well.

[Alpha Sierra]

I have two very experienced shooting friends that I have the utmost respect for that recently switched from Smith & Wesson M&P Pros to CZ P-09s, and immediately performed pretty spectacularly with them. Interestingly, their M&P issues weren't accuracy issues, but other M&P reoccurring component quality control issues.

If I was switching platforms from Glock, the Cee Zed polymers would be pretty high on my short list of possible contenders.

Best, Jon

To be honest, the steel and aluminum framed CZs seem to get lost in the shuffle but IME are even better shooters than the new plastic ones.

If you grab a 75, P-01, or SP-01 and it feels huge in the grip, do not discount it. The factory plastic or rubber grips panels are too thick for most people. A set of G10 or aluminum grips transforms the ergos into something that has to be experienced to be believed. And I'm not just talking about "feel", I'm talking about results on paper at speed and at distance.

[JonInWA]

And I notice that CZ has provided their product-improved Omega trigger to one of the versions of the venerable CZ-75, for those inclined towards the metal CZ route...

Best, Jon

[Fire-Medic]

Ok so back form the range. I will start this off by saying, I'm no pro, and I haven't touched a pistol (or any firearm for that matter) for the better part of a year. So take it easy on the new guy lol. We were at a public indoor range, but my buddy knows the owners so we don't have the range Nazi's bugging us about stuff. That being said, while I did have the ability to draw from a holster today, someone else brought me the weapons to shoot, and he had his holster on for the Beretta 92 he was shooting and did not have his holsters for the rest. So I was not shooting from retention, nor was I on a clock, because with all the shots going off simultaneously there was just no way. I tried to keep a pace of about one shot per second as a cadence except for the 25 yard line. More on that after. Ammunition used was hand loaded 147gr Precision Delta JHP projectiles with once fired brass, CCI primers, and IMR 7625. Don't real the charge right now off hand.

All shooting was done freestyle, nothing off a rest or WHO or SHO today. We all ran late getting there and there just was not the time before closing. So I shot for groups with everything to get a feel for the pistols.

I started with the Glocks because they're what I know best and I had not shot in a VERY long time. So here goes.........

Picture #1: (All strings of fire were 10 rounds)



Picture #2: (Same target as #1 but close up of where I was aiming)



Ok so the orange dot center of the chest was my first magazine with the G17. I shot 10 rounds at a pace of about 1 round per second at 5 yards. Cut me some slack it's been a while. I felt as if an old friend and I were re acquainted right from the start. Truth be told, I was having FUN!

Next string of fire was the orange dot center of the head with the G34, not bad but G34 at 5 yards it better look like that and it should be tighter lol.

I then moved the target to the 7 yard line. The next string of fire at 7 yards was the top right corner "#1" with the G34, not sure what happened there, maybe a mental breakdown, but that sucked LOL. I will note some history here with me. I cannot for the life of me tell you why, but I have always shot the G17/G22 better than the G34/G35, and you will see this in a bit with the pics from the 25 yard line. The "Tactical" models to mer just don't feel balanced and they feel front heavy, not sure why but I'm not one of the guys that does better with them. And quite frankly with the G17/G22 size costing less, why bother if I don't shoot it better.

Next I grabbed the G17 again because I was horrified by that 7 yard group with the G34 and needed to redeem myself. I shot at the "#2" target, then took a break and reloaded and hit the yellow circle once with the G17, then the orange circle with the G17 (I marked G34 but that was in error), and then I hit the yellow circle a second time at a faster pace than before. So I was getting the hang of the G17 again and reunited with an old friend.

Picture #3: (Beretta 92/CZ P-09/G17) (7 yards)



Picture #4: (Close up of #3)



Now it was time for the new guys. I put up a fresh target and grabbed the Beretta 92. For the record my buddy is having hell of a time getting his sights right, it shoots low for him, and does for me as well as you can see. So you can see the disaster with the 92 at the "#1" top right, the CZ P-09 on the left at the "#2" and the orange circle, and the yellow circle with the G17 at a faster pace than the other two for comparison. Orange dot in the head here was the G17 too.
The yanked shot on the #2 with the CZ was NOT in DA I short stroked in SA. I did NOT like the way the CZ felt in my hand and did not care for the the way the trigger itself felt and it's movement. The "pull" of the trigger was nice, but I just did not like the mechanics of it. The Beretta was as I remember a D spring Beretta being, long as all get out on the DA but manageable, and nice on the SA. But my sample today is having sight issues, he's shooting 3" low at 25 with it.....

On this target, I took it back to the 25 yard line afterwards, and fired 5 rounds taking my time with the G34, very much not to my liking: Picture #5 (G34/25 yds)



At least I did something right with it on the first shot lol......

Now I put up a new target again, took it back out to 25 yards, and shot 5 rounds at a faster pace with the G17 than I did with the G34, and the one shot I yanked low I knew it when it happened because I yanked the trigger. If it wasn't for that low yanked shot, would have been a nice little group "for me", I'm still happy with it though considering how long it's been: Picture #6 (G17/25 yards)



For frame of reference, here's the G17/25 yard group next to one of my grubby mitts: Picture #7



Pistols used:
- G17 Gen 4; Glock 3.5 (-) connector, polished internals, Warren black rear sight and Red F/O front
- G34 Gen 4; configured same as G17
- Beretta 92; D spring, Dawson F/O front, Wilson battle sight rear, stippled gips
- CZ-P09; CGW trigger parts, factory hammer, Dawson black rear F/O front setup

So I think the targets speak for themselves and there's something to be said to my time shooting Glocks, whether I am passionate about them or not, I shoot them better than other firearms. I spent some time last night and this morning reviewing Surf's threads in the reference section as well as some of Todd's. Surf's thread on holding the gun was priceless and I saw the effects of it today. The best way I can explain how my shooting fly today is, I can be more accurate with the Glock vs the others, without having to focus as much to do so. I can click with less clear of a sight picture and make hits. Today I was having FUN, and I smiled all the way because I hadn't shot in so long.

So at this point, I'm thinking it's time for a G17, but the only thing still in the back of my mind is the VP9..... None of my local ranges have one for rent, and for the life of me, I don't know anyone who owns one for me to shoot. Holding in a gun store might give me a "feel" but we all know feel doesn't say jack about the way you can shoot a pistol. I just shot a 2x4 grip better than everything else today.

I do remember when I owned my P30, me and the paddle mag release did get along VERY well, dropping mags with my trigger finger and not breaking my grip. I would "assume" if I could shoot the VP9 as well as the Glock (or better), and I'm faster at mag releases with the HK style mag release, and the HK has more "mechanical" accuracy then that should all translate into a pistol I shoot better ....... Right?

So where does this leave me.....?

I tried to be as transparent, detailed, and complete with my report of the range trip today. My apologies, but I don't write for a living and I'm not a photographer, lol.

So let's have at it, feedback welcomed!

Thanks
Gabe