That would be actual evidence. I'm fine with actual evidence. "Fearsome reputations" are the reason why idiots on the internet are still saying dumb shit like "they all fall to hardball" and "WW2 pointshooting is the best!"Originally Posted by Alpha Sierra
Fearsome reputation generation event;
Off duty officer (ODO), armed with a 4" model 66 loaded with issued 125gr Remington JHP (issued because; fearsome) is driving home via POV but in uniform. Sees dude beating a chick up off to the side of the road. He does a you turn to go back and see if it is serious or if they are screwing around, with plan to drive down to the corner pay phone at the Kwik Shop to call it in if it looks serious.
As he pulls up he sees dude really is beating the crap out of chick. At that point a third party guy, not associated with either party except they are all there at the same time, comes off his porch and yells at off-duty to "get the fuck out of here" and starts lighting his car up, ironically with a 4" .357 revolver.
ODO takes a chuck of frag through the driver's door through his left forearm. He gets his gun drawn while trying to lay down in the bench seat and tangled in his seatbelt. ODO gets gun deploy and returns fire, empties gen, then has to OJT loading a wheelgun with a speedloader while trying to lay prone on a car seat and bleeding.
Bad guy hit with one round in the center of his shin. Bad guy collapses in his tracks after the hit, and is screaming and incoherent after he wakes up when the ambulance crew starts working on him. Exit hole in calf is the size of a tennis ball. At the ER his leg looks like a snow storm on the Xray, they save the leg after several surgeries, but he loses 4" of bone from the tib and fib and has one of those shoes with a block on it the rest of his life.
But then, sometimes you don't get these results, sometimes you get something like what happened to Trooper Mark Coates.
Thanks for that, Chuck.
I'm really not trying to bad on the .357 here either, I carry one - I just don't buy that it's somehow more effective than other modern pistol rounds at putting bad guys in the dirt. I think a lot of the "fearsome reputation" has more to do with people not understanding wound ballistics from pistols. I've read a lot of the "one shot stop" reports from .357 and I wonder if the same badguy in the same circumstances had been hit with a 9mm or a .40 in the same place if it'd had the same result.
Of course, the answer is always "we don't know" but it's an interesting thought exercise.
Most internet gel tests are NOT well done; among many issues, most fail to do the minimum number of 5 shots per test event--10 shots is even better.
During the early to mid 1980’s, like many people, I was duped by articles singing the praises of the .357 Mag 125 gr JHP. I carried a 4” 686 and a customized 3” M13 loaded with Fed 125 gr JHP. However, after going on active military duty and being in a position to test ammunition at the Letterman Army Institute of Research with Dr. Fackler, it became obvious that the .357 Magnum 125 gr JHP’s tended to have relatively shallow penetration, frequently fragmented with resultant decrease in permanent crush cavity, and had temporary cavities of insufficient size to contribute significantly to wounding. In addition, these loads had a large muzzle flash and blast, as well as a relatively harsh recoil which inhibited accuracy and re-engagement speed. As the FBI established a science based ammunition testing program, their research data also showed less than stellar performance from the lightweight .357 Mag loadings, including the 125 gr JHP’s. .357 Mag can certainly offer adequate terminal ballistics, however, there is a reason very few agencies issue .357 mag revolvers for self-defense/force protection purposes anymore. I personally would prefer a good service pistol in 9mm/.40 S&W/.45 Auto over a .357 mag revolver for SD/duty use. We don’t do much .357 Mag testing anymore, as it simply is not used by the folks we test for, however, in past years, like the other facilities noted above, in our testing the lightweight 125 gr and under .357 Mag loadings often had insufficient penetration, while the 158 gr and heavier loadings frequently penetrated deeper than ideal for use on biped opponents. To be honest, I no longer have much use for .357 Mag, always choosing a 4-5" .44 Mag revolver (wouldn't mind a .41 Mag or hot .45 Colt) for any back country purposes and preferring the "controlability" and reduced blast/flash of .38 Sp +P loadings for urban self-defense use in 2-3" barrel revolvers. The best modern .357 Mag loadings we have tested have been the Winchester 180 gr Partition Gold and loads using the Barnes XPB all copper bullets when shot from barrels of 4" and longer; the old Win 145 gr Silvertip works OK as well, as do a couple of the newer bonded loads.
For those individuals who doubt evidence based research and prefer “street results”, the CHP, the largest agency to issue .357 Mag 125 gr JHP’s on the West Coast, clearly reported significantly better results in their officer involved shootings after switching to .40 S&W 180 gr JHP loadings, based on officer perception, objective crime scene measurements, as well as the physiological damage described in the relevant autopsy studies. The CHP used a variety of .357 Mag loads, depending upon what was available via the state contract. According to the published CHP test data from 1989-90, the .357 Magnum load used immediately prior to the CHP transition to .40 S&W was the Remington 125 gr JHP with an ave. MV of 1450 f/s from their 4" duty revolvers. I first saw the data when it was presented during a wound ballistic conference I attended at the CHP Academy in the early 1990's; I heard it discussed again at a CHP Officer Involved Shootings Investigation Team meeting in November of 1997 at Vallejo, CA. The information reviewed the differences in ammunition terminal performance such as penetration depth, recovered bullet characteristics, tissue damage, as well as other physiological measurements and physical evidence detailed during forensic analysis.
Facts matter...Feelings Can Lie
My personal guess on such things is that certain attributes can make a bullet more effective. I think we can agree that something like a 300gr hardcast WC launched from a full power .454 round would be effective regardless of angle of impact, bone, clothing, windshield glass, etc. Full penetration every time, any angle, likely zero deviation from the original path.
None of us can realistically carry such a bullet launcher, or deal with the recoil from training.
One of the attributes of the .357 mag, velocity, is what makes it work rather well regardless of "what bullet", typically, and if we are talking 125gr bullets and up.
Is a 158gr .357 more gooder than a 155gr .40 at similar velocities? Likely not.
Perception is a very human part of this. Loud equals better, or at least more impressive to many people.
DB and I talked about this as far as psychological stops, many of his guys carried Ruger SP101s loaded with full power ammo back in the day, and both of us care not why the bad guys stops, if it works.
Flash-bangs are pretty much purely psychological in effect, does that mean SWAT teams should stop using them?
I will note that lately I see so much derp ref 9mms, such as the avalanche recently over the FBI decision to go back to 9mm. It matters not that their 9mm ammo equals their .40 ammo and exceeds their .45 ammo in testing.
I note that back in the day when we issued 4" .357s our detectives could carry whatever they wanted. Many went to small guns like Chief's Specials or PPKs, but the guys that were considered gunfighters were carrying a model 19 or 66 2 1/2".
That magnum snub launched our duty ammo, always a 125gr JHP, depending on whether we were using Rem or Federal that year, and which lot number, anywhere from 1250-1350fps. That was considered to be a "manstopper" back then, as you have noted.
My G17 launches our issued +P 124gr Gold Dots at 1250-1275fps in the crono checks I have done on our duty ammo, done when we get new ammo in, again depending on which lot number, yet the 9mm is considered by many to be a puny round suitable only for accountants and girls.
ETQ; Doc and I were typing at the same time it appears. My observations are very similar to Doc's ref observed street reality of police duty ammo during that time period.
You just compared a 357 snub to a G17. Not quite the same size barrel length.
US Navy Veteran
1961-1965
Due to the way barrel length is measured, a 3 inch snubby has about the same length of actual rifled barrel as a 4 inch auto.
Comparing ballistics between the two is not just based on barrel length, but I don't believe most people are interested in getting into such factors such as escaping gas from the revolver vs. the auto.
I do think a comparison would be more appropriate between a 4" revolver vs a 4" auto or a snubby revolver vs a compact auto.
US Navy Veteran
1961-1965
I`m with ya and like some of us carried / started with 38/357 revolvers. I'm even of thinking of going back to a 3inch version because for me it faster out of my AIWB than the 4inch Plus I refuse to use 357magnum loads because I'm faster and even more accurate using the 38spl/38spl+P . I figure more rounds faster on the bad guys is better than using the high recoiling 357magnum 125gr SJHP in a 4inch revolver.
I've done Bill drills using max loads 2400+125grSJHP and it aint much fun in a M19-4 and its a little better in a heavy 686-4 or GP100-4.
If someone really want to most of the 125gr SJHP use a 6inch barrel. I could tell a Big difference between the 4inch and 6inch. I never used a chrony but I'm sure it adds more velocity.
I heard stories back in the day that some LE officers actually carried 6inch barrel 357magnums. I deer hunted with my 6inchers and never tried using one for SD.
BTW I wish I could shoot a service pistol as accurately as I do a 6inch barrel 686/GP100.
you must love the 357sig then
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