Will competition get LEO's or Armed Civilians killed?

[Tom Givens]

Tom, thanks for taking the time to respond.

1) your data base of student shootings is fascinating. Is the detail available anywhere, and if not, have you considered compiling this information, perhaps with names deleted, as a resource for students of defensive pistolcraft? There is a DVD detailing 10 representative examples, then looking at trends and commonalities. I also do a detailed power point lecture on the data in our instructor course. Also, the current American Handgunner has an article on these, and it's available free on their website.

2) I have heard a quote attributed to you -- that the reason you switched from a 1911 to a G35, is the 1911 is a two bad guy gun in a 3-4 bad guy world? Yes. I carried a 1911 for many years, with 2 spare magazines. In later years, with 8 rd mags, that gave me 25 rounds. I now carry a G35, which is identical in size to a 5" 1911, but I have 46 rounds.

3) copy on the flashlights. Did any of your student shootings involve the use of a laser? No.

4) similar question -- did any of your students use long guns? No. 90% of our student shootings occur away from home, on shopping center parking lots, stop'n'rob parking lots, or other parking lots. Private citizens don't normally carry long guns in those places.

[SeriousStudent]

I'd like to echo the others. Tom, thank you very much for the detailed data, it is much appreciated.

See you in February.

[Aray]

I have a number of instructor certifications and have taken a good bit of training from lots of folks as a regular student. Tom's Instructor class was second to none in describing what a civilian needs in the real world and why.

[Hambo]

Many times individuals responding to unanticipated violence shoot with strong hand only-- As I said Ken was watching videotape after videotape of police officer involved shootings. This is a recurring problem in law enforcement due to poor and insufficient training. Most officers only shoot when mandated, and most agencies only shoot once per year. Obviously, there are agencies with better and more frequent training, but sadly they are rare. For many of these officers their annual qualification course is the only shooting they've ever done and many of those qualification courses require shooting with one hand at 7 yards and under. We see the opposite. Our students are taught to only shoot with one hand IF THEY ONLY HAVE ONE HAND AVAILABLE. As a result, most of our students go to two hands and eye level. As a result, they get hits.

At one LE class, Ken said that whether an officer used one hand or two was dependent on whether they had the gun out or had to draw.

[John Hearne]

At one LE class, Ken said that whether an officer used one hand or two was dependent on whether they had the gun out or had to draw.

Whenever we look at the police to understand what happens in a shooting, we have to remember who we are seeing. Looking at what the typical street cop does is a look into what happens when someone with mediocre training, years ago, and not regularly and properly refreshed, does. The good news is that it isn't that hard to shoot better than the typical street cop. The main advantages that street cops have is 1) pretty serious stress inoculation 2) a comfort working under a lot of stress and 3) familiarity with bad guys.

We don't know for sure, but a lot of folks accept a shot fired hit rate of 15% for American law enforcement. There are groups of LE that have a lot higher hit rate. These groups tend to have several factors in common: 1) selection of individuals who are willing to intentionally confront evil men and 2) more regular firearms training than the typical cop. (The one I'm thinking of shoots every 30 days.)

When you looks at the FBI research, police only had a per incident hit rate of 39% but a good number of those involved officers who were wounded before they used deadly force. When officers weren't injured, they had a per incident hit rate of 62%. When officers shot first, they had a per incident hit rate of 100%. Tells me to shoot first and not get shot.

(Shot fired hit rate is what percent of shots fired hit. If you fire 10 rounds and hit with 8, that's an 80% hit rate.
Per incident hit rate does not take into account the total number of shots fired. If you fired 10 rounds and only hit with 1, and then did that three times, the per incident hit rate would be 100%)

[NH Shooter]

Fantastic! Thanks Tom!

Yes!

Tom, I see that you are on the list of instructors being contacted for training opportunities in the northeast ( http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbu...ng-toward-2015! ). This is the group I have booked my training through in the past and if you offer your class here in 2015, I will be there!

Another question on your stats - have you recorded what is the typical amount of time from when a student became aware of imminent danger to the time they drew their weapon? Once the weapon was drawn, what was the typical period of time before the firing commenced?

Thanks!

[Chuck Haggard]

For the folks thinking about "what training", Tom and John Hearne's lectures on this subject matter are worth, IMHO, the cost of tuition to attend the Tac Conference alone, even if all of the other training involved wasn't available (which it is).

[Tom Givens]

NH Shooter- please email me at rangemaster.tom@gmail.com . I have two classes in your area in 2015. I'll get you the details.

As for time elapsed in shootings there is simply no way to tell unless the event is on video. How many seconds elapsed would probably be the least accurate estimation a participant could make. Only one of our private citizen shootings was caught on tape, as it occurred inside a convenience store with several surveillance cameras. From the time the first gun came out to the end was about three and half seconds.

[1slow]

For the folks thinking about "what training", Tom and John Hearne's lectures on this subject matter are worth, IMHO, the cost of tuition to attend the Tac Conference alone, even if all of the other training involved wasn't available (which it is).

Fully agree.
Your lecture on active shooters is also worth the trip.

[Mr_White]

I very much appreciate you adding the comments on your student incidents, Tom!