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Thread: Revisiting an article written by the newest staff member, Chuck Haggard...

  1. #21
    Member Wheeler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Haggard View Post
    I greatly appreciate the comments from everyone. It's always nice to get feedback, I'll take negative because it helps one grow, but I ain't gonna lie and say positive feedback isn't nice.

    In the years since I wrote that article my opinion has only been strengthened on this subject. A trained good guy with a gun in the right place at the right time is the absolute best and quickest way to shut down an active-murderer.

    Even in a Nairobi type scenario, think about what it would have done to the terrorists plans if they had started taking accurate pistol fire at the beginning when they attacked the outdoor cooking competition before they got into the mall itself. That would sure be a money wrench in the plan.
    One of the terrorists came under pistol fire from one of the on duty guards at the main entrance and suffered a leg wound. Both retreated from the engagement. Any thoughts on how that might have been turned into a better outcome?
    Men freely believe that which they desire.
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wheeler View Post
    One of the terrorists came under pistol fire from one of the on duty guards at the main entrance and suffered a leg wound. Both retreated from the engagement. Any thoughts on how that might have been turned into a better outcome?
    Press the advantage instead of retreating and hope friendlies are right behind?

  3. #23
    Very Pro Dentist Chuck Haggard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lomshek View Post
    Press the advantage instead of retreating and hope friendlies are right behind?
    ^This^ if at all possible.

    If we are supposed to move to contact and engage the bad guy, why would we back off after having done so?

    That said, if a CCW dude is involved then getting a hit and backing off ain't the worst idea I ever heard.

    Maybe shooting something more important than a leg would help the process along.

  4. #24
    Member Wheeler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Haggard View Post
    ^This^ if at all possible.

    If we are supposed to move to contact and engage the bad guy, why would we back off after having done so?

    That said, if a CCW dude is involved then getting a hit and backing off ain't the worst idea I ever heard.

    Maybe shooting something more important than a leg would help the process along.
    From the video footage in the BBC documentary it appears the terrorist took cover behind a concrete column and the security dude was pretty much in the open at the entrance. It appears that he dumped his mag scoring several hits on the column and the lucky hit on the leg. It does not appear as if he had an advantage in the exchange and probably didn't know he had hit the bad guy.

    With the notable exception of a few police and private citizens it seemed as if no one was really prepared to press the bad guys. The final solution was to wait a few days and then bomb or shell the grocery store.
    Men freely believe that which they desire.
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  5. #25
    Very Pro Dentist Chuck Haggard's Avatar
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    The state of police training and equipment in India is a bit different than what we have going on here.

  6. #26
    Member Wheeler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Haggard View Post
    The state of police training and equipment in India is a bit different than what we have going on here.
    My apologies. I was thinking we were discussing the attack in Kenya. Sorry for the confusion.
    Men freely believe that which they desire.
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  7. #27
    Very Pro Dentist Chuck Haggard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wheeler View Post
    My apologies. I was thinking we were discussing the attack in Kenya. Sorry for the confusion.
    Same-same, I jumped to Mumbai mentally, but training doesn't appear to be any better in Nairobi, even if they have better rifles.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Haggard View Post
    Same-same, I jumped to Mumbai mentally, but training doesn't appear to be any better in Nairobi, even if they have better rifles.
    I was struck by how trigger happy the Army troops were that went in the mall in Kenya. Not only did they shoot one of the cops in the mall trying to rescue folks but they shot some of the folks as well. It was almost as if there was a huge fear of a big bogey man or three based on their reactions. That falls in line with your scenario training and should be a sobering wake-up call for those that prefer intervention as a plan of action.
    Last edited by Wheeler; 10-06-2014 at 07:08 PM.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wheeler View Post
    I was struck by how trigger happy the Army troops were that went in the mall in Kenya.
    Untrained (essentially) troops going after what have been hyped as elite killers can be expected to cause a lot of panic fire.

  10. #30
    Member Wheeler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lomshek View Post
    Untrained (essentially) troops going after what have been hyped as elite killers can be expected to cause a lot of panic fire.
    According to Chuck's scenario training, this phenomenon isn't unique to untrained troops. I'm sure there's someone in the group that has a solid handle on the psychology and I'd dearly love to hear from them. My admitidly simplistic take on it boils down to Claude's assertation that people can't think logically with a loaded gun in their hands, even stone cold types.

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