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Thread: Revisiting an article written by the newest staff member, Chuck Haggard...

  1. #41
    Leopard Printer Mr_White's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    Care to share them so I can steal your best ideas and pass them off as my own ? :-)
    Sure.

    I shamelessly use Paul Howe's procedure as the mechanism by which students can correctly evaluate a potential threat and whether that person satisfies the common criteria of ability, opportunity, and jeopardy.

    Nothing really new or innovative here. I'm sure others have done these types of things long before I came along. But I really try to impress upon the students the importance of doing it this way.

    In the classroom, I explain the importance of a thorough procedure by asking them to think of themselves in the position of being the one assessed – suppose they have just shot someone in self-defense, are now standing there holding a gun, when another concealed carrier sees them or responding LE arrives. That responding party had better not stop assessing when they see the student's gun in their hands, and my students need to afford complete assessment to others as well. Suggestions are also made to get into a position to put the gun down or away upon seeing responders arrive or, if safe, putting the gun away before that point.

    I use the example in the classroom of a person approaching them in a darkened parking lot (with rusing verbiage “my dog, my grandma, my bus ticket, can I talk to you for a second, hey sir you dropped this”, etc.) We talk about that, then I bring it back to Paul Howe's procedure by turning the lights down, tucking my black shirt behind my black gun (grip now visible in the waistband), then walk toward the student tables with the same rusing verbiage, but now with a visible pistol in my waistband – if they look there. If they don't look there, the lighting is just low enough that it's easy to miss.

    On the range, when we get to the 360 scan in post-shooting procedure, I try not to let them do the perfunctory non-scan that is commonly seen, and instead actually look at the real people – me and the assistant instructors – who are really there and evaluate us properly, looking at the whole person, then the hands, then the waistline, etc., and consciously practice evaluating us for ability, opportunity, and jeopardy.

    They will see people known to them, their instructors, in uniform or normal clothes with ID badges, who have ability (some of us visibly so and some not) and opportunity, but are not doing or saying anything that makes us a legitimate threat to them. And I make it clear that at no time will we do anything requiring any actual response by them.

    As we continue running drills and practicing post-shooting procedure, the staff behind the students may have various objects in hand. We use common items – wallet, keys, cell phone, flashlight. Then I conspicuously pick at my nails with a big knife while they are scanning. I specifically question them on that one and we discuss again that seeing a weapon in hand, in absence of threatening behavior or circumstances, does not constitute a deadly threat. Some day, as an example, they are going to be at a mini mart and some genius is going to whip out a big knife at the counter to open their pepperoni stick.

    There is also a live-fire low light exercise we do that deals with identifying objects depicted on targets. One has a gun held near the high torso, but a badge at the waistline as if clipped to a belt. They better look at that whole person and waistline.

    It also should be addressed when they get to FOF/scenario training.
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  2. #42
    Gray Hobbyist Wondering Beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrigamiAK View Post
    There is also a live-fire low light exercise we do that deals with identifying objects depicted on targets. One has a gun held near the high torso, but a badge at the waistline as if clipped to a belt. They better look at that whole person and waistline.
    Experienced that during a training scenario; I shot the target. It was long time ago and I hope I keep remembering that lesson.

  3. #43
    Member BaiHu's Avatar
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    Great post OAK!
    One of the great things about P-F is the combination of information and education. The thread responses here have as much of the latter as they do the former-not something seen on many sites. Thanks guys!
    Fairness leads to extinction much faster than harsh parameters.

  4. #44
    Member Wheeler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wondering Beard View Post
    Experienced that during a training scenario; I shot the target. It was long time ago and I hope I keep remembering that lesson.
    I went through a shoot house several years ago full of the printed threat/no threat/suspiciously up to something printed targets several years ago. One of the targets I assessed as a threat was in a bladed stance with one arm extended pointing a gun at me. I placed three very closely spaced .356 sized holes in the throat area. I later found out that it was a cop holding out his badge. That was very enlightening.

  5. #45
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    FWIW, this was a valuable thread just from post #1 and reading Chuck's article. It keeps getting better with age.

    As a civilian, I've mentally tried to decide if/when/how/under-what-circumstances I would consider getting involved in an AS situation. Assuming I was faced with a choice to get clear or get involved, in most situations I can think of I lean heavily towards getting clear if possible. If I'm outside a mall, hear shots fired, and have no sights on the shooter, for example. But for me, schools have always been a different thing, mentally. With school age children, I frequently find myself at school. With one kid on the swim team, I find myself at unguarded, unmonitored, unsecured school facilities frequently. I believe I'd have a clear conscience walking away from the sounds of a mall shooting, but not so from a school. If my kids were inside, certainly no way. If my kids were with me, then I'm likely gone as fast I can get gone.

    Reading Chuck's article, and the follow on comments, has solidified my resolve not to wait for organized force should I make the decision to head towards an AS. The bits about potential pitfalls have also been very valuable and appreciated.

    I don't have anything to add here except my thanks for this discussion.
    "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." - Thomas Jefferson, Virginia Constitution, Draft 1, 1776

  6. #46
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    Thanks OAK.

    We've done the 360 scan thing on the line but with the instructors holding up fingers and the students calling out how many fingers they see. At my old address, I was advised not to use objects, particularly knives or red guns etc for this as they had previously experienced a student or two from the wrong end of the bell curve turning around with a loaded weapons in hand despite warnings. I've seen enough "no shooter left behind" to believe it.

    There is also a live-fire low light exercise we do that deals with identifying objects depicted on targets. One has a gun held near the high torso, but a badge at the waistline as if clipped to a belt. They better look at that whole person and waistline
    We've done this in daylight following physical excercise and gotten "interesting" results. Many badges and cell phones were shot but all were up in the hands. I like adding the belt line given how common "Walker Texas Ranger" carry is around here.

    During live fire shoot house training a few years ago I put 5 rounds of 5.56 into a cartoon target in a dark corner I believed was holding a "grenade", turned out to be ..... a green soda bottle - lessons included weapons mounted lights are useful indoors even in during the day and this was one of the things which lead me to finally break down and get my first pair of "old man glasses".

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by John Hearne View Post
    Whole person, hand, hand, waist, face.

    Whole person - meta view, who are they - ex. uniform.

    Hand, hand - check each hand

    Waist - clear the waistband

    Face - emotions, anger, fear, (add are they tracking you? per Bill Rogers)

    Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk
    This and the link to Chuck's article are perfect examples of the benefit of PF.com

    I first read Chuck's article awhile back, and have actually found that it has been useful in a fairly wide variety of conversations. Among those has been talking to some people who have jumped on the anti-cop bandwagon. Linking single officer response, obligation to engage, and "if not ___, then who?" language to some of the realities outlined in the article makes it very difficult for people to conclude anything other than, "if we expect officers to put themselves in these positions, we have to allow them the tools they need to survive, and we should probably acknowledge that police are necessary and have a very difficult job."

    Thank you for being you, Chuck.

    Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

  8. #48
    Very Pro Dentist Chuck Haggard's Avatar
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    I appreciate the thought RB. I just try to pay things forward. I have been blessed to have been mentored, and called friend, by guys like Jim Cirillo, Keith Jones, Ken Good and Vince O'Neil, and too many others to mention. I have truly stood on the shoulders of giants

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