Is There a Role for Large Caliber Handguns?

[threedogdad]

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4339-M1-Carbines

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.p...ense-Long-Guns

Great info. Thank you, Chuck...and DocGKR.

I don't want to get too far off on a tangent, but since we seem to be discussing the .30 carbine round, I'm wondering whether, now that the supply of mil-surp carbines has dried up, is Fulton Armory the only game in town? I understand there have been durability issues with the Kahr repros, but has anyone handled, fired or owned one of the new production "Rockola" carbines from James River?

http://www.jamesriverarmory.com/rock...ne-detail.html


If this belongs in a separate thread or just deserves deleting, I'll understand. I was just curious.

Thanks,

[Haraise]

Those .357 Sig bullets would probably blow apart at 1600 fps, but using soft points instead in a non-blowback subgun might get you something like 1800-1900 fps, which could be interesting and useful for some tasks--a PDW with some punch.

They're still holding up okay at 1511 fps:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iujNWfhUx4A

And that's just a test of one. All it takes is a normal sized 1911/2011 (5 inch barrel) to get full velocity. Plenty of people here carry a G34/35, which is even longer.

[Chuck Haggard]

They're still holding up okay at 1511 fps:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iujNWfhUx4A

And that's just a test of one. All it takes is a normal sized 1911/2011 (5 inch barrel) to get full velocity. Plenty of people here carry a G34/35, which is even longer.

A friend has a G35 with a .357Sig barrel, I'll have to ask him to crono a few rounds

[Haraise]

A friend has a G35 with a .357Sig barrel, I'll have to ask him to crono a few rounds

I don't want to be the one to cause an injury, so I need to say... Double Tap is known for loading at the ragged edge. It's a high pressure round to start putting more powder in, and some barrels lack case support compared to others. Normal .357 Sig won't get up to the kinds of speeds we're talking about for effective tearing, here are some G35 converted chronos:

"Here's what I have crono'd in a G35 with standard LW barrel:

Speer Gold Dot (54234): 1438

Federal HST 125gr: 1415

Win White Box 125gr: 1438

Hornady 147gr XTP: 1275

Corbon 125 match: 1468"

From: http://glocktalk.com/forums/archive/...t-1406587.html

[Jeep]

My dad had the opportunity to shoot a number of south bound bad guys during human wave charges in Korea. He liked the carbine, a lot. His observation was that most of the "stopping power" issues with the .30 carbine round stemmed from dudes going full auto with an M2, then talking about how they "fired a whole clip into that...." when in real life they likely missed a whole lot.

He noted the same thing ref M16s not having "stopping power" after stories started coming out of Vietnam (he did three tours there as well).

The ballistics you describe exactly fit what a .30 carbine SP is capable of.

Chuck: Great post and I really liked your recitation of your dad's experiences.

The trouble with the carbine, as with pistols, is that it really needs good hits when shooting adrenaline-filled guys at close range. So, while a lot of guys were missing for the reason you note (full-auto has to be the best way for semi-trained guys to miss targets ever invented), too many were hitting oncoming Japanese/Germans/North Koreans/Chinese/VC/NVA in non-vital areas and not putting them down. There are many reliable reports from three wars showing this.

The flip side is that good shots (eg Audie Murphy. LTC John George and I presume your father) found it a very effective weapon, and also had enough training to keep shooting until someone went down and not just fire once, as you could generally (though not always) do with a 30-06.

I was trained by a bunch of ex-SF guys after they came back from Southeast Asia, and they generally were of two mind. Some hated the carbine, generally because they had shot someone on an ambush who kept coming at them. Others thought it was an almost ideal jungle weapon. Generally, they were the better shots.

As for the ballistics, yep, I think the two would be very similar, but the carbine has two issues. First, many of them reportedly won't feed soft points (thankfully I have never had that problem). Second, it would be hard to create a truly short-barreled weapon with the .30 carbine cartridge because it really needs at good part of that 18 inch barrel to get its velocity. My guess (and it is only a guess) is that a 9X 23 cartridge would get to full velocity with maybe an 8-10 inch barrel, which would be nice in a subgun.

So, while I love the M1--it has to be one of the quickest handling rifles ever made--I think the 9X23 might fill a slightly different role--if it ever was built which it won't be.

[John Hearne]

The flip side is that good shots (eg Audie Murphy. LTC John George and I presume your father) found it a very effective weapon, and also had enough training to keep shooting until someone went down and not just fire once, as you could generally (though not always) do with a 30-06.

A friend of mine was a acquainted with a very distinguished Korean war vet, possibly a MOH winner. His preferred long gun was the M1 carbine. When asked how it worked, he was reported to have just "Just fine." When asked why it worked so well for him, he responded that he "always shot them in the star" referring to the star on their head gear.

I'd also add that not much short of buck shot will stop someone in a full berserker rage. The 30/40 Kraig didn't do much better than the .38 against the Moros in the Philippines.

[DocGKR]

I am unaware of any scientific correlation between Clear Ballistics polymer and living tissue.

[Haraise]

Second, it would be hard to create a truly short-barreled weapon with the .30 carbine cartridge because it really needs at good part of that 18 inch barrel to get its velocity. My guess (and it is only a guess) is that a 9X 23 cartridge would get to full velocity with maybe an 8-10 inch barrel, which would be nice in a subgun.

Depends what you mean by 'full velocity.' Even normal 9x19 'needs' 14-15" of barrel to get the maximum FPS: http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/9luger.html

Rather than looking for maximum FPS, I'd recommend looking at where the FPS has the 'knee' of the curve, that is to see when it stops rising so sharply. It's a subjective thing, as it's all about what you consider a good return to barrel length, but the 9x23 has been pushed up to =>1700 fps @ 125gr at just 5" of barrel. .30-30, being an older round, seems to usually have a slower burning powder for the bore to velocity ratio: http://ataleoftwothirties.com/?page_id=114

[Haraise]

Double.

[BLR]

I am unaware of any scientific correlation between Clear Ballistics polymer and living tissue.

Terminal ballistics and scientific correlation. Seems somewhat paradoxical to me.