The Temple Index

[Tamara]

Demonstrated by Tactical Response star pupil Tex Grebner...

Tex also has a pistol in that video, but you don't seem to be discounting the utility of a handgun just because he sported one in his paws.

[Alpha Sierra]

It only took me once to see a dude fall at my local range while running in SUL and have the whole gun go straight into the deck and get pushed out of battery to decide kyle defoor was right about running with a gun.

What is our natural reaction when we fall? To outstretch our hands to "break" it. Never mind that there are better ways to fall, outstretching our arms and hands is what we do if no one tells us any better.

Soooo......if you do that (outstretching your arms and hands to break a fall) with a pistol in one hand, it's very likely that you're going to jam that gun into the ground no matter where you had it pointing before you lost your balance.

[Dagga Boy]

The amount of pure unadulterated fail in every part of the Tex video makes me glad that there is a place not around us that these types of folks can go train. We don't want them. I do feel bad for those who don't know any better who buy into this stuff. But hey, if after a shooting you want to put a pistol next to your head facing up and do a pirouette, well by all means....... Personally, I want to keep my pistol trained on the last known threat that is hopefully down or running and just use my head and eyes to check for a place to go or additional threats.

Falling with a pistol. This is an issue unto itself. If you think falling forward is bad.....falling back and to oblique angles is worse. As I have said before we are victims of our own experience. My experience with running with pistols is bad. Falling, ambush, out running your brain, are all issues I have seen firsthand and its all scary. My own view......no good can come of it. Again, I am big on either slowing down to a movement level you can fully control when the gun is out, or holster it an run when not in full control and where the focus is movement. The compromise is running with the gun holstered and a grip established.

[DocGKR]

Unexpectedly falling with a handgun tucked in close to the body ala SUL can result in bad things happening if there is no engaged manual safety (think Glock, Sig, revolver, etc...) and a button, zipper, toggle, piece of gear, or other item engages the trigger...

[breakingtime91]

What is our natural reaction when we fall? To outstretch our hands to "break" it. Never mind that there are better ways to fall, outstretching our arms and hands is what we do if no one tells us any better.

Soooo......if you do that (outstretching your arms and hands to break a fall) with a pistol in one hand, it's very likely that you're going to jam that gun into the ground no matter where you had it pointing before you lost your balance.

so when you fall you go condition black? Arguing that because its a natural reaction without a dangerous tool in your hand, you will do it the same with with that tool is weird to me. how do you run with a gun bro?

[breakingtime91]

The amount of pure unadulterated fail in every part of the Tex video makes me glad that there is a place not around us that these types of folks can go train. We don't want them. I do feel bad for those who don't know any better who buy into this stuff. But hey, if after a shooting you want to put a pistol next to your head facing up and do a pirouette, well by all means....... Personally, I want to keep my pistol trained on the last known threat that is hopefully down or running and just use my head and eyes to check for a place to go or additional threats.

Falling with a pistol. This is an issue unto itself. If you think falling forward is bad.....falling back and to oblique angles is worse. As I have said before we are victims of our own experience. My experience with running with pistols is bad. Falling, ambush, out running your brain, are all issues I have seen firsthand and its all scary. My own view......no good can come of it. Again, I am big on either slowing down to a movement level you can fully control when the gun is out, or holster it an run when not in full control and where the focus is movement. The compromise is running with the gun holstered and a grip established.

thanks nyeti, really good points. I think its hard for some people to understand there is not one solution. When running I either run muzzle up or holster. When searching and assessing after "engaging" a threat I stay on the threat, whether the gun is still extended or not is all based on the situation..

[Dagga Boy]

What is kind of funny with the whole post shooting dance, painting the fence, full Sabrina, etc.... is that in my circle of people, all the ones who have actually shot people in the U.S. are all on the same page of keeping that muzzle on that downed threat unless you have to move it. No one is against regain of situational awareness and checking around, but all of the games that get played with post shooting tend to be "theory based". I really like a good scan prior to holstering and for holstering to be very reluctant, but some of this stuff is just plain stupid and I have no idea what world it came from other than the "seems like a good idea" fairy.

[Surf]

I had many discussions with several "notable" trainers on this topic, plus endless discussion on the error net. I came from that time frame when high port was a technique championed by a certain military group. Yes I know where it came from and know the guy(s) who introduced the technique to them. I remember when high port was poo poo'd because that certain military sun and surf group was often teased by their peers and everyone else bashed on high port because they used it so much. I remember the days prior to 911 when CQB was the bread and butter of domestic LE units and the major military was still on a different page than they are today with their urban training. We gave a lot of input back then and high port existed for us.

I always stated that you needed to be able to use a technique that allowed you to point the muzzle in the safest possible direction no matter your circumstance. A short few years back, traveling the country from various training seminars, shooting courses, open and closed, for LE and military or both, this topic often came up as I run high port as a part of my normal routine. Of course the comparison to that certain mil unit used to come up, even though I have been running it for longer than I can remember. Then you would always get the age old argument about pointing you gun up when there might be people upstairs. Again this is from some very notable individuals with names that everyone here would know. I used to always give the response, that within the world that I normally work, we drop off guys on the main floor to stay with the "bodies" as the remainder of the structure or residence is cleared, which often includes a second floor. Now if I only ran SUL or a variation of a low ready, I would in fact be facing my muzzle at individuals on the lower floors. The point being is that I needed to be able to point the muzzle of my weapon in the safest possible direction given the circumstance. That might be up, down, sideways etc. But without the proper training it does not become natural or fluid as those situations present themselves.

Thankfully that conversation usually went very well, despite experiences, notoriety / accomplishments of those trainers who hated the technique. I think they more so hated it because of those guys who used it so much. Inter-rivalry thing I suppose. Now you will often hear the exact argument quoted nowadays by those same "notable trainers" or others about the possibility of needing to be muzzle aware of people on lower floors, so high port has been looked at a bit differently from way back when.

High port, or Sabrina with the pistol became the stigma indeed because of Charlies Angels and not just the character Sabrina but all three of them. The technique is valid and we have also used it for years, under certain situations. Again understanding the safest direction of the muzzle and ease of manipulation given the situation you find yourself in. If you don't use something and don't train it, it won't happen or will not be effective or safe. Yes, when we teach any technique exaggeration of the movement is executed until competence is achieved and it becomes fluid and less robotic-like.

I do find that just like everything else in this modern training "circuit" or the "roadshow" as I often call it, that guys jump on things and may put it to the forefront a bit too much in an attempt to be "cutting edge" or the help separate themselves or their training organizations from "the others". When in reality much of this crap has been around for a long long time and much of it is new to "those" individuals, or trainers. I will also note that I hate getting out of a normal passenger vehicle with a pistol in high port, but do use it to orient the muzzle in various directions when engaging from the vehicle. I will not call it "temple index".

[Dagga Boy]

"I do find that just like everything else in this modern training "circuit" or the "roadshow" as I often call it, that guys jump on things and may put it to the forefront a bit too much in an attempt to be "cutting edge" or the help separate themselves or their training organizations from "the others". When in reality much of this crap has been around for a long long time and much of it is new to "those" individuals, or trainers. I will also note that I hate getting out of a normal passenger vehicle with a pistol in high port, but do use it to orient the muzzle in various directions when engaging from the vehicle. I will not call it "temple index"."

Its funny, I was having some conversations with some "notable trainers" recently and this was discussed. The reality is that many of us are teaching the EXACT same thing as far as what is important in the actual delivery of lethal force. We honestly know what works over the last century and a half of using pistols in a combatives role and nothing is really new. Some things will change due to "technology", and the most notable in my mind is in how far we have come with sights in the last 50 years that has changed a lot of what we do and what we are capable of.

The biggest differences come in the areas of deployment itself and some of the gun handling issues. Policing in the US is very regional, so every area will have some nuances. Then you have capabilities of the end users being dedicated or non-dedicated. The same "regional" differences exist in the military between branches and then you have vast differences in the role and capabilities and missions. Use of lethal force is vastly different and the rules governing how force is used is night and day across the board. Throw in what armed citizens are doing, and essentially, there are no "right" answers in this area. What there isn't is a lot of is critical thought and hard work in the lab. Many find it easier to simply do what somebody else is rather than doing a bunch of testing in your own lab. I get that it is hard as some don't have lab access, but it should be pretty apparent to most that something developed for some kind of team made up from within the top 1% of the military for overseas work may not be the best for a IT specialist with a CHL.

Then you have the marketing folks. When you have very little background or experience to fall back on, slick marketing and b.s. snake oil is the order of the day when you are trying to pry training dollars from people's wallets and industry support and endorsements. Much of the training and firearms industry as a whole is full of the "take this pill and you will lose 5 pounds a day" or "miracle berry found in the jungles of Brazil cures all ills"......and of course........"1 pill a day for a foot long schlong".
It is all b.s. People who fall for it are both victims of hope combined with stupid............and we have all been there at least once .

Essentially, pay attention to those with a lab. If it fits your world use it. If it doesn't try to understand why and accept that we have different worlds. Beware of those pushing things based on other folks experience that they have no contextual understanding of (go into babble of terminology, or say "SEAL's" when asked "why") . If it sounds to good to be true it is. If those pushing something have never actually used it......that may be a clue.

[Alpha Sierra]

so when you fall you go condition black? Arguing that because its a natural reaction without a dangerous tool in your hand, you will do it the same with with that tool is weird to me. how do you run with a gun bro?

Do you really not understand the point?

Let me lay it out for you then. Your temple index is no better than SUL, or anything else, if you point your gun hand down to break a fall. Conversely, if you avoid using your gun hand to try to break the fall, you won't jam your pistol into the ground no matter which way you had it pointing.

How do I run with a gun? However I want, "bro". I am untrained.