When is it too soon to get on the trigger?

[Mr_White]

Didn't someone do a reaction time test to see the difference in having their finger on the trigger verses having their finger in a hard register?
I seem to remember the results being basically negligible.
Claude Werner perhaps?

The 'command fire' drill under recent discussion informs this quite nicely:

For me, in the command fire drill, starting on sights, on trigger, slack out, at beep complete press well and as quickly as possible: times were .14 to .18 on a B8 x-ring at 5 yards, and the black on a B8 at 11 and 25 yards.

Starting in a low ready/contact ready/threat ready (depending on what one calls it) with finger straight, first shot to an A-zone or 8" circle at 7 yards is very easy to do under .50. Times of .3 to .4 are what I get doing that pretty relaxed. When I push it like in the command fire drill, I can get down to about .22 or so.

So I'd estimate (since the targets and distances are slightly different) that starting on trigger vs. starting at ready means about a .05 to .15 second difference, at least for me.

[JHC]

The 'command fire' drill under recent discussion informs this quite nicely:

For me, in the command fire drill, starting on sights, on trigger, slack out, at beep complete press well and as quickly as possible: times were .14 to .18 on a B8 x-ring at 5 yards, and the black on a B8 at 11 and 25 yards.

Starting in a low ready/contact ready/threat ready (depending on what one calls it) with finger straight, first shot to an A-zone or 8" circle at 7 yards is very easy to do under .50. Times of .3 to .4 are what I get doing that pretty relaxed. When I push it like in the command fire drill, I can get down to about .22 or so.

So I'd estimate (since the targets and distances are slightly different) that starting on trigger vs. starting at ready means about a .05 to .15 second difference, at least for me.

And with an armed adversary incurring similar lag times - with possibly additional reaction time, depending on who initiates, doing it one way or the other may hypothetically prevent an opponent from getting an undisturbed by penetrating gunshot wound shot off.

Is that negligible?

Proctor uses the rationale of how many rounds the enemy can discharge at you with an AK per second for learning to hit a target repeatedly as fast as one is able to learn to do it. IIRC I've seen TLG lay out similar rationale here for the pursuit of speed.

[HopetonBrown]

Didn't someone do a reaction time test to see the difference in having their finger on the trigger verses having their finger in a hard register?
I seem to remember the results being basically negligible.
Claude Werner perhaps?

Ron Avery goes over that here.

[Mr_White]

And with an armed adversary incurring similar lag times - with possibly additional reaction time, depending on who initiates, doing it one way or the other may hypothetically prevent an opponent from getting an undisturbed by penetrating gunshot wound shot off.

Is that negligible?

Proctor uses the rationale of how many rounds the enemy can discharge at you with an AK per second for learning to hit a target repeatedly as fast as one is able to learn to do it. IIRC I've seen TLG lay out similar rationale here for the pursuit of speed.

JHC, I'm not directing this at you as if you are advocating for a bad practice, I am just expanding on this line of discussion.

I reference those kinds of timing references too, and think they are very worthwhile to pay attention to:

Average untrained person can fire once every ~.25 seconds.

Average person can cover 7 yards in about 1.5 seconds.

Hand on gun, gun in or out of waistband/holster can get on target and start shooting in under .50 seconds.

A person holding a gun can spin 180 degrees and fire in the opposite direction in ~.50 seconds.

Cyclic rates of select fire guns - something I really don't know about, but I agree that it's relevant in the same way, especially for .mil.

Etc., etc., etc.

However, I think that other human dynamics very strongly dictate that having the gun aimed using the sights, with the finger on the trigger, cannot be considered a workable or legitimate ready position. In a ready position, the essential task is to make a decision to engage. Making that decision must come before any justifiable engagement can happen. By aiming the gun and blocking so much of the vision with the hands and gun, it may delay our decision to engage that is going to lead to presenting and firing the gun. So, counterintuitively, it can end up being a lot slower than presenting the gun from a position that allows unobstructed vision, even if it takes slightly longer for the raw physical actions necessary to start getting rounds on target. And having the finger on the trigger before a conscious decision to fire has been made creates an unacceptable risk of ND. IMHO, nothing good will come of getting aimed in with finger on the trigger, before a decision to fire has been made.

[GJM]

Bill Rogers explains how trigger on the trigger is NO faster than off, if you have to react and move to a target (as opposed to being aimed in on a flat, stationary Target). That is besides all the negatives associated with finger on the trigger, covering the target, before you have made the decision to commence the process of firing.

[PT Doc]

Didn't someone do a reaction time test to see the difference in having their finger on the trigger verses having their finger in a hard register?
I seem to remember the results being basically negligible.
Claude Werner perhaps?

Claude did one, but I thought it was on TPI a couple of years ago.

[JHC]

JHC, I'm not directing this at you as if you are advocating for a bad practice, I am just expanding on this line of discussion.

I reference those kinds of timing references too, and think they are very worthwhile to pay attention to:

Average untrained person can fire once every ~.25 seconds.

Average person can cover 7 yards in about 1.5 seconds.

Hand on gun, gun in or out of waistband/holster can get on target and start shooting in under .50 seconds.

A person holding a gun can spin 180 degrees and fire in the opposite direction in ~.50 seconds.

Cyclic rates of select fire guns - something I really don't know about, but I agree that it's relevant in the same way, especially for .mil.

Etc., etc., etc.

However, I think that other human dynamics very strongly dictate that having the gun aimed using the sights, with the finger on the trigger, cannot be considered a workable or legitimate ready position. In a ready position, the essential task is to make a decision to engage. Making that decision must come before any justifiable engagement can happen. By aiming the gun and blocking so much of the vision with the hands and gun, it may delay our decision to engage that is going to lead to presenting and firing the gun. So, counterintuitively, it can end up being a lot slower than presenting the gun from a position that allows unobstructed vision, even if it takes slightly longer for the raw physical actions necessary to start getting rounds on target. And having the finger on the trigger before a conscious decision to fire has been made creates an unacceptable risk of ND. IMHO, nothing good will come of getting aimed in with finger on the trigger, before a decision to fire has been made.

Roger that. I thought this comparison was in the context of the decision to fire against a deadly threat had already been made and the choice was keeping the trigger finger at the frame/slide index until sights were fully on target or moving the trigger finger into the trigger guard and beginning the prep of the trigger shortly before full index as described on page one of the thread, and demonstrated in the Frank Proctor vid as the gun comes into one's vision (not the same as sights aligned).

If a decision to shoot has not been made then there is no doubt. Finger out of the trigger guard. If one is moving to cover or in movement to contact but not IN contact, finger out.

How early is too early?

[Mr_White]

Roger that. I thought this comparison was in the context of the decision to fire against a deadly threat had already been made and the choice was keeping the trigger finger at the frame/slide index until sights were fully on target or moving the trigger finger into the trigger guard and beginning the prep of the trigger shortly before full index as described on page one of the thread, and demonstrated in the Frank Proctor vid as the gun comes into one's vision (not the same as sights aligned).

If a decision to shoot has not been made then there is no doubt. Finger out of the trigger guard. If one is moving to cover or in movement to contact but not IN contact, finger out.

How early is too early?

Doh, sorry. Posting distracted here. I will go back and watch the whole Proctor video and make sure I am following you.

[joshs]

Roger that. I thought this comparison was in the context of the decision to fire against a deadly threat had already been made and the choice was keeping the trigger finger at the frame/slide index until sights were fully on target or moving the trigger finger into the trigger guard and beginning the prep of the trigger shortly before full index as described on page one of the thread, and demonstrated in the Frank Proctor vid as the gun comes into one's vision (not the same as sights aligned).

I think the video of Frank was used to show the more conservative/traditional approach to getting on the trigger vs. what Caleb and Bob are shown doing in the image stills of their draws.

I generally hate commenting on this stuff because it is generally difficult to tell exactly what is going on from a picture (I'm not even sure Bob is touching the trigger in the posted image), but I don't see a huge issue with what Caleb is doing since the gun is already level and looks like it is probably already pointed at a target.

[GJM]

I will also bet $5 that almost EVERY person, if viewed on slow mo video, is getting their finger into the trigger guard earlier than they think.