Descending to AR15.com status

[BWT]

Given that this is a forum centered on firearms, the SME definition is narrowly tailored to that. Nominations are made and then voted on by other SME's...and since sometimes privileged information is exchanged among SMEs there has to be a significant level of trust in the demonstrated character of that person in addition to whatever knowledge they bring to the table.

There are many other fields out there besides gun stuff, either the logistics side or the killing of bad people side. There are members of this forum who are surgeons, network engineers, auto mechanics, property managers, salesmen, CEOs, and at least one former Top Gun instructor. The simple fact is that while I'd be thrilled to hear just about anything a Top Gun instructor has to say about planes or the way they train pilots...even though I probably won't understand 2/3rds of it...this isn't F/A-18.com. We have the SME tag to help identify people who might know quite a bit about gun stuff because that's primarily what the board is about.

I'm not remotely qualified to tell you who knows their stuff about neurosurgery. That's not our bag, baby.

All of our SME's fit the description above.

Being straight with you TC, it seems atleast Sean feels his SME status doesn't garner a lot these days in how his opinion is respected by new comers (feel free to correct me if I'm putting words in your mouth Sean). Should a code of conduct be reviewed, implemented or more rigorously enforced?

In my I.T. Professional opinion Nyeti's opinion is more credible than say Massad Ayoob for example. He's used lethal force (ETA: in the line of duty and offers a good insight on that process) is known in the industry, and we now have an LE forum; would that not jive with the direction we 're going?

[LittleLebowski]

Irony: hearing in the same thread that LE are not respected enough and that others avoid our LE forum because we are too pro LE.

[orionz06]

Sounds like we have at least four topics being discussed here, and perhaps I have missed others:

1) LE forum. I really don't know the issues as I don't knowingly go there, so someone else can describe them.

The issues are outlined in this thread. I think it would work best if it went to training/gear only. Anything resembling news should be nuked immediately.

There is some overlap in the shooting incidents thread(s) and it can stay there if worthy of discussion. How that thread has been OK for so long is beyond me but it's useful and I am thankful for that. A few guys allow me to be lazy and up to date at the same time.

2) Derps. Who is and who is not a derp. Are we a basic, intermediate, advanced forum or all of the above. Should a derp be able to start a derpy thread, and how might we police that.

Derps... Tough one. Does naming a specific user who can often be derpy fall outside of personal information?

3) Moderation. Do we want more, less or about the same. Have the moderators been fair lately. I say lately, because the tone/tenor of PF has changed since Todd has been less active. Is moderation to keep people from swearing or what else? Is moderation a good or bad thing?

The moderation seems fine, for the most part. The swearing thing... Not sure, seems to have relaxed. It pissed me off to no end when I got an infraction for swearing, specifically saying "cool shit" twice in one post and others were not told anything. Some because they were SME's. What pissed me off was that "cool shit" is such a common phrase, almost so that it would be close to skirting the profanity label anyway. That's not even what got me, what got me was that prior it had been almost free reign to say what ya wanted. Not that I wanted F-bombs every other post but having to take a step back and replace words in posts was annoying.

So moderation... Be consistent. Since this instance I haven't seen too much that was really inconsistent other than times where folks were told to take it easy because of who they were dealing with.

4) SME. Apparently a SME is named in a private SME process. On M4 and now PF, there is drama that surrounds how people treat and are treated by SMEs. Is the SME system juice worth the squeeze, and what might a SMEless PF look like.

They are jumped in, I hear.

Not sure I would say there is drama but I have been vocal and will continue to be vocal about how I think it is dumb. Good posts will lead to people being seen as experts, not a title. All a title does is keep people from attempting to correct someone who is being wrong. In the past I have seen someone say something wrong and Bill Riehl corrected them, swiftly. In the past I have also seen people told to shut up because the person who was wrong was an SM"E" of sorts. With a wide variety of topics discussed here how can we keep track?

Not sure how to fix it though. Reputation systems are meh, I mean they help but even they can be lame. There was a Gibson guitar forum that used one. I had joined to ask some questions and very quickly determined that the greater the reputation a poster had the less I cared about what they had to say. Another forum had a hot chic thread where most people got their reputation points. Those same people pretty much sucked for any info relating to the topic the forum was about.

[Dagga Boy]

As far as the SME stuff, it is something that I doubt is ever in the cards for me, as I tend not to get along with the folks who hand out titles in any organization, and as Sean pointed out, doesn't always mean much as they can get out of their lane just like everyone else. This leads me to "lanes". Just like on the roadway, staying in yours is a good thing. Drifting while texting is rude, and driving the wrong way on a highway is just plain dangerous. The internet is full of lane violations.

I would suggest that we have more lane consciousness, and recognition when people start cutting off trucks. As far as use of lethal force in the United States......I have a good deal of experience in both application, investigation and training for that reality. A bunch of courts have determined that I meet their qualifications to testify as an expert in those areas. Want to talk about any sort of use of tools and guns..........DO NOT LISTEN TO ME. I only know things based on screwing them up. And the stuff that gets typed by Bill Riehl fully baffles me. The same with TV cartoons for adults as I still don't know what is going on with Archer's gay friend or Archie's spy thing. I stopped watching Star Trek by the 4th grade, again, out of my lane. Something done elsewhere that is often maligned, yet works for establishing "tone" on the net is maybe having some serious, real standards for profiles. Some type of designation by the staff for those VERY FEW folks who actually have a super secret job is very much doable. I can gauge a post or a response far easier when the person I am responding has a profile that is such that we as a collective can understand where they are coming from. It also helps to know if they are driving the wrong way in traffic (which often corresponds nicely with "student" as occupation), or if they are simply trying to figure out how traffic runs in the area they are venturing into.

I want this place to work. I have enjoyed most of my time here (although I have had to take some breaks), which is why I am investing now while the door is open rather than just leaving P-F in my "read only" status.

[GJM]

Irony: hearing in the same thread that LE are not respected enough and that others avoid our LE forum because we are too pro LE.

We are friends, so I know you are not intending it this way, but the use of "we" may suggest a division that isn't present. I also think it would be most helpful to let as many folks as possible speak their mind in total, before commenting on contradictions, as it may have the effect of constraining what people say.

I started off this morning wondering why on earth did Sean ever start this topic, but I think it might be a very helpful process for the forum to get feelings out there and discuss them.

[Haraise]

Irony: hearing in the same thread that LE are not respected enough and that others avoid our LE forum because we are too pro LE.

That's not really irony, it's just life man.

Some people's only experiences with cops are saving pregnant kitties from assault fire murderers. Some have less shiny experiences. That's why political forums are shitstorms, and there is never any resolution.

If this is going to be pistol forum and not let's argue about who is wrong because everyone didn't live the same life forum, it just needs to be about guns.

[Jay Cunningham]

Feel free to call members (by their member names) out in this thread; no real names or emails or phone numbers.

[jlw]

VolGrad used to always be taking classes from some of the top "names" in the business. We had several discussions where I took the stance of why should I spend more than the cost of a gun on a class when I can go to GPSTC or similar and take a week long class WITH ammo furnished by the training center. Often, the "name" was one I was familiar with simply due to it being mentioned in firearms media, but I didn't truly know the backgrounds of the people or what they were teaching that would make it worth dropping the money needed to take one of their classes.

Then this forum started. The "SME" title was helpful to me in some respect as I studied the public resumes of the folks with said title to see what training they had, specifically the LE background examples. One of the common threads was the FBI Firearms Instructor school. So, I sought out and attended an FBI Firearms Instructor School. I paid close attention to what these folks posted on the forum, and from there I began to formulate a list of those of which I wanted to train under. I attended the Tactical Conference and refined that list.

Just this year based on this forum, I have trained with Ernest Langdon, Hackathorn, Rogers (directly due to people on this forum), and twice with Tom Givens. I still have another class scheduled for later this year, and I am hosting Givens again next year as well as SouthNarc.

My knowledge and skill have grown tremendously as a direct result of this forum. Furthermore, and more importantly, my personnel have gotten better too as all of the above training has been transmitted into improved training for our staff as well as some of our instructors also attending classes from the above list.

I have met some some great folks as a direct result of this forum. I was standing there when Origami smoked the Rogers Test because of this forum. It blows my mind that some of the SMEs from here have not only returned my emails but have occasionally called or emailed me to discuss things. I have joked with some here that I found myself one night sitting a table with the Givens, Jim Higginbotham, Chuck Haggard, and John Hearne, and looking around and thinking one of these is not like the others, and it is me.

I was honored to be asked to help with the LE forum, but I also expressed concern that it be very narrowly defined and held tightly to that standard.

When it quickly turned into a dog-shooting-from-armored-vehicle-forum, I expressed concern to no avail. In fact, I didn't even get a response (sorry guys, I wouldn't have mentioned publicly that if not for the post asking if a member had contacted one of the two cops appointed to run the LE forum. If one of said two people doesn't get a response to such concerns... )

We haven't turned into ARFCOM. It's worse, we've turned into officer.com.

This has been my haven from the typical lunacy that permeates so many forums. If it is going to run rampant here then this forum loses its appeal. I want to talk firearms training and shooting. While I enjoy a good procedural discussion and readily answer such questions, I have absolutely no interest in threads/post where people search out and use half-baked media reports to support their preconceived conclusions, and frankly, for all those who are convinced they know how to do this job so well when they have not spent five minutes in a patrol car, go fill out an application, attend an academy, and hit the streets. Come through a little chlorine in the pool.

I hadn't logged in here for several weeks. I only did so because I saw a link to this thread on Facebook and decided to check it out. I hesitated to respond in such a manner, but since it has turned into a general air clearing I'll play too.

I don't think that all is lost here although the life cycle thing is accurate. My preference would be that the LE forum be either very narrowly defined to areas specifically relevant to the subject matter of this forum or get rid of it. If it is just going to be general cop current events forum, I want no part of it.

[Alembic]

Wow. Sorry to be blunt, but let's remember if you posting, you are blowing your own horn. If you are reading, well use a filter. However if you fail to acknowledge that every one has something to offer then you are missing out in on opportunity to learn and grow. If I may be so bold, from my observations over the last two years, the level of arrogance on this site is on par with the skill levels.

[LittleLebowski]

We are friends, so I know you are not intending it this way, but the use of "we" may suggest a division that isn't present. I also think it would be most helpful to let as many folks as possible speak their mind in total, before commenting on contradictions, as it may have the effect of constraining what people say.

I started off this morning wondering why on earth did Sean ever start this topic, but I think it might be a very helpful process for the forum to get feelings out there and discuss them.

I'm all for everything getting aired out here, trust me. However, carte Blanche is is carte Blanche and I do notice the glaring contradictions.