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Thread: handgun field positions 50-100 yards

  1. #11
    Site Supporter Jay Cunningham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    Jay, I wonder is this is influenced partly by external conditions and body shape.
    I would say everything is influenced by that.


    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    I am 6-1, 165 pounds, and find California kneeling to be more stable than when standing upright. I just was shooting 25-100 yards in driving rain with 20-30 mph wind, and the kneeling definitely helped me with stability in that rain.

    As an aside, I continue to be convinced that in relative terms, while both are necessary, trigger press is more important than perfect sight alignment for this kind of shooting. Chasing perfect sight alignment can cause you to start, stop and start your press, as opposed to focusing on press and looking for acceptable sight picture which works out better for me.
    I agree with you regarding the sights and trigger. I think the single greatest detriment to long-range accuracy is thinking that a long, slow "surprise break" is beneficial. One the sights are on - they're on - it's time to commit to the trigger in short order, otherwise you'll wind up mentally talking yourself out of a good shot.

    Of course besides the technique, people fail to build up their knowledge base learning how their gun hits (and how they hit with their gun - a separate issue) at different ranges and with different types of ammo. This can cause all kinds of frustration as well.

  2. #12
    Jay, excellent points on your gun and your ammo.

    We really needed paper to sort this out. With my wife's G34, she can hold right on at 25, in the 40-70 yard range she needs to hold at the bottom of an 8 inch plate, and then back to mid target beyond 75. Not sure what part of this is her pistol, her sights, her ammo or her eyes. Definitely helpful to get very familiar with YOUR pistol.

    That same G34 shoots PMC and Aguila POA/POI but 115 Lawmen several inches right. Lawmen and PMC shoot great in my G17, to the same POI. Lawmen is a great load for my 17 at 50 yards and beyond. This level of detail is just noise out to 20 or 25 yards, but at the longer distances very significant.

    Yesterday, at one point I was consistently hitting the 8 inch at 70 yards with the G17, when the target was so grayish, I could hardly see it. Then I painted it bright white, and my hit ratio went down. I think it is because I started getting hung up with sight alignment, instead of just focusing on trigger. The trigger control issue translates directly to the carbine for us. We were just shooting the AR pistols at 100, and offhand rolling the trigger smoothly also trumped having red dot being perfectly in the center of the 8 inch plate.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  3. #13
    Question on using the sights as the distance increases. I got to a point today, where I needed to hold at the top of the 8 inch plate. Obviously that causes the front sight to obscure much of the target. I recall elevating the front sight in the notch many years ago, and think some of the six-guns had front sights set up with marks for elevating at distance. By elevating the HD front sight in the notch, it at allowed me to hold at the bottom of the target, so as not to obscure it.

    Thoughts on this?
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  4. #14
    Very Pro Dentist Chuck Haggard's Avatar
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    I used to make longer shots with my .357s by holding the top or bottom edge of the red ramp on the front sight even with the top of the rear sight blade, this allowed me to get a good sight picture that compensated for long range, without obscuring the target. I'm sure a guy could figure out something similar with a 9mm pistol.

  5. #15
    Hillbilly Elitist Malamute's Avatar
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    Holding some front sight up above the rear is how I've been most successful in shooting at distance. Covering up the target isn't going to be easy to get the precision you need for distance.

    The red ramps on Smith revolver sights work good for reference points. Its more trial and error and learning by doing as to where to hold the rear in relation to the front. With the g-19, I think I'm holding the rear at about 1/3 of the way down the dot on the front sight for the 300 yard plate (current one is about 24", the old one was about 18"). That's one handed, for two hands, I need a little more dot, since the gun doesn't move as much when fired two handed. That's with WWB. For the hollow point stuff I tried, it needed a little more front sight, they arent quite as aerodynamic as the fmj loads are apparently. On closer ranges, its just a shade of front held up for me. The difference between 200 and 300 is pretty large compared to the 0 to 200 difference. 45 autos require quite a lot of sight compared to the 9mm or anything in that velocity range.

    My g-19 sights aren't perfectly centered for windage, I'm also holding the 300 yard plate about 1/3 of the way from the left side of the blade instead of perfectly centered. It seems ok up close so I haven't messed with it.

    The usual response when going shooting with people and shooting at the plate is "what, are you crazy?" then "holy kittens!". Then I explain how I'm holding the sights, encourage them to try it, and they start walking them in. One friend had a variety of guns, including some of the pocket size glocks. It took more shots, but we hit the plate with all of them after a mag or two. You do have to really pay attention to sight alignment and trigger squeeze. Most are all over the place at first, then settle down and get them in tighter when they see the dust fly from the misses.
    Last edited by Malamute; 09-13-2014 at 01:01 AM.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    Question on using the sights as the distance increases. I got to a point today, where I needed to hold at the top of the 8 inch plate. Obviously that causes the front sight to obscure much of the target. I recall elevating the front sight in the notch many years ago, and think some of the six-guns had front sights set up with marks for elevating at distance. By elevating the HD front sight in the notch, it at allowed me to hold at the bottom of the target, so as not to obscure it.

    Thoughts on this?
    Thats the only way to hit small targets at distance. Without elevating the front sight, you have a sight picture that obscures the target. Elevating the front sight allows you to be more precise and learning how much elevation you need is pretty simple.

    Ken

  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    Question on using the sights as the distance increases. I got to a point today, where I needed to hold at the top of the 8 inch plate. Obviously that causes the front sight to obscure much of the target. I recall elevating the front sight in the notch many years ago, and think some of the six-guns had front sights set up with marks for elevating at distance. By elevating the HD front sight in the notch, it at allowed me to hold at the bottom of the target, so as not to obscure it.

    Thoughts on this?
    My experiences mirror those of Malamute, LSP552, and Chuck Haggard. You learn pretty quickly how much front sight to hold up at various distances, and the red outline in Smith revolvers of old is ideal for this.

    Elmer Keith and Ed McGivern marked their front sights with horizontal bars for long-range shooting. (The the taller front sights normally found on revolvers in those days is one of the main reasons that Keith preferred them to autos.) The bars were not set for any specific distance, but were an aide to holding up a consistent amount of sight. Back in the day, I had no problem keeping most of a magazine from a Ruger 22 or an old Browning Hi-Power on a plastic 5-gallon bucket at nearly 200 yards. I've also been able to hit E-Type silhouettes at 200 and 300 meters with a Beretta M-9 and NATO ball using the same method.

    Zero starts to matter a LOT for this kind of work. You need to be dead on for windage, so adjustable sights really earn their keep. I zero my G17 to hit 1" high at 25 yards, which puts it 1" low at 50. Then I can hold on the chin of an IPSC target at 100 and hit the chest with a hot 115- or 124-grain load, or hold for the forehead and hit the chest with 147. Impact at more probable self-defense ranges is still workable, so +1" at 25 yards ends up being a very useful every-day zero.

    With HD sights, the first useful increment of front sight will probably be the distance from the top of the ball to the top of the front sight. This corresponds to the distance from the top of the blade to the top of the insert on a Smith revolver with a red insert. That should get you out to 150 yards or so depending on your gun and load. The 9mm and the 22 LR both have about the same trajectory, which is a lot flatter than you'd think.


    Okie John

  8. #18
    Leopard Printer Mr_White's Avatar
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    Wish I still had the opportunity to shoot at extended distances. I would love to try this 'shooting out of the notch'/elevated front sight thing. I don't doubt that way is better, but I have been able to hit head sized targets at 140 yards, using standard 'equal height, equal light' sight alignment with a little holdover. It does partially obscure the target, but shooting with both eyes open still allows me some awareness of the target position.
    Technical excellence supports tactical preparedness
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  9. #19
    Member Desertrat's Avatar
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    I have not tried shooting much farther than 50 yards with the Glocks or the 1911's. I do know that at some point you
    definitely are way above target line with the front sight. Targets are actually blocked.

  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Desertrat View Post
    I have not tried shooting much farther than 50 yards with the Glocks or the 1911's. I do know that at some point you
    definitely are way above target line with the front sight. Targets are actually blocked.
    Think you might be surprised in the 40-75 yard range with a 9mm Glock, how high POI is with many sight arrangements.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

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