handgun field positions 50-100 yards

[GJM]

I have spent a fair amount of time the last few days shooting at what I consider longer semi-auto handgun distances -- 50-100 yards. Shooting paper and steel. (Side note, I think paper is very helpful so you can see hits if you are having a problem at a particular distance. Same with frequent painting of your steel with white paint, to see your hits.)

I would like to discuss shooting positions. For my group shooting, I have looked for a position more stable than offhand/standing for 50 yards and further out. Here is what I have messed with:

Prone: Leaving aside issues with laying in mud, water, debris, I have problems getting comfortable/seeing my sights clearly in the classic prone as taught by Gunsite, and the like. I also tried the Defoor two hand "golf club" (is that what he calls it?) method. An advantage is it elevates the pistol making it easier to see the sights looking straight ahead, but it seems slow and doesn't control recoil well.

Sitting: Braced kneeling, supporting my arms with the inside of my knees has been my most frequent field position, besides standing, for many years. I have come to find it less than ideal, as it changes how I normally extend my arms, and seems to negatively influence my grip on the pistol. It also makes me wonder if I am looking down at my sights.

My wife uses a quasi kneeling/sitting that is different. She sits on her dominant left side foot, other knee bent, and otherwise her arms are the same as when standing. That hurts my foot/ankle and doesn't work for me.

Kneeling: Today, I started experimenting with what Gunsite called "California kneeling," on both my knees, but modified by rocking back to sit on my feet. This allows me to adjust my height with my feet, and how I sit on them, hold my arms like my normal standing position, and look at my sights the same as standing. It is pretty quick in and out. So far, this is my favorite position.

What are you doing?

[TinMan]

We regularly shoot at 50 and 100 at work, and most folks go for the prone position at 100.

If you have the flexibility for it, the one that seems to work best is to keep your gun vertical and get your strong hand/arm as flat as possible. The bring your head all the way down to your firing shoulder. That keeps your arm in contact with the ground all the way out to your forearm, giving you a lot of stability.

This keeps your grip and sight picture the same as it would be if you were standing.

Of course, if there is any contour in the ground you may lose sight of a low target. It takes a pretty good degree of shoulder extension also, I've had two shoulder surgeries and I start to feel it after awhile.

[Malamute]

GJM, I do it sort of like your wife, sitting on the right heal, toes under the foot, with my left elbow resting on my left knee. Once in a while the foot may be turned under and sit on it that way. The only time I tried the 600 yard plate was kneeling. With a spotter, I made one hit of ten rounds with a g-19. Was able to do 6 for 6 with the K-22 at 300, and 5 for 6 with the 4" 29 @ 300 on a 36"H x 18" w plate kneeling. The back rested with gun between the knees works OK, but requires the backrest for me. Kneeling is simpler and pretty quick to get into position on.

I haven't tried prone, theres enough cactus, sharp rocks, or nasty varmints on the ground in many of the places I've been, prone never occurred to me to try. Seems like it should work. Some think the concussion of magnum loads is more noticeable from prone.

[okie john]

I've done very little work in prone with a handgun--either the brush was too think or there were too many stickers/cacti/snakes/etc. for it to make sense.

When I lived in Oklahoma and Texas years ago, I did a fair amount of longer-range revolver shooting from kneeling and from Elmer Keith's braced sitting position. The Keith position worked well as long as I was kept the cylinder gap in front of my knees, and a backrest definitely helped. Trees were best, and the tire of a pick-up worked well, too. Breath control was vital in the Keith position to keep my heart from pounding and disturbing the sights, and I preferred kneeling for that reason.

But that's just for shooting at targets on a flat range or across a plowed field. When I hunt with a handgun, I still-hunt in thick brush. Visibility often drops to a few inches if I kneel or go prone. As a result, every animal that I've killed with a pistol has been from offhand. Except for one ill-advised shot, most were well within 50 yards, with many inside of 25. I used the Weaver stance until a few years ago and Isosceles since then. My training for hunts consists of working on quick assumption of position followed by a quick trigger press--by October, deer don't tolerate indecisive hunters.

I see two other things in this thread that ring a bell for me. The first is that I try to keep roughly the same upper body position (alignment of eyes, hands, arms, and handgun) that I use for all of my other shooting. The closer I can stay to this, the better I shoot. The second is that I try to eliminate movement below the waist by pressing a hip or part of my rib cage against something solid. This dramatically reduces wobble, lets me preserve my upper body position, and lets me see over intervening brush. California Kneeling would accomplish the same things (except for being able to see over brush) without the need for a tree or a post, so I need to check that out pronto.

I have never had good luck shooting from a rest at any distance, but that's from a lack of knowledge that I mean to correct this winter.

Because of my hunting experience, I feel like I'm more likely to need a long handgun shot across a large parking lot or in some other urban environment than I am when I'm out in the hills. In that case, I'll probably be down behind cover instead of standing out in the open looking like a B-27, so I need to do some work from prone.

Hmmm....a few more things to work on this winter.


Okie John

[JHC]

Elmer Keith pictures show a lot cool reclining options. My fav is a version of sitting, reclining pretty sharply back into a pack, best anchored against a tree or something. The hands and pistol sandwiched between the knees with feet outboard, wider than the knees.

Knees pressing in around the back of the hands/wrists. This puts the sights further way from the eyes than any other offhand position. I think that makes the sights and target look even better for precision. I have the sense that precise sight alignment is improved as the front seems to fill the rear notch even more as that rear notch seems smaller further from the eyes.

I've shot some 3-4" groups at 50 yards like that with N frame revolvers and my 1911.

Technically . . . . . . your toes may be out beyond your muzzle. So don't screw up and shoot a toe off. I was in an outlaw 3 gun match that had a timer stop when you knocked down three 8" plates with your pistol at 60 yards. I tried to use this but that got "No Go'd" because of the feet relative to the muzzle. I caught a break on that stage anyway since a richochet from knocking down an earlier popper took down one of my 60 yard plates.

[Wayne Dobbs]

How about African style shooting sticks? And I've found that the braced back sitting position has worked best for me. The thoughts of maintaining consistency with the upper body attitude in alternative positions is valid in my experience.

As for results, I've killed about 15 Texas whitetails in the past several years with a revolver, all from a sitting position with a front rest (ground bow blinds). All were one shot affairs with ranges ~25 yards, so not germane to this discussion.

[GJM]

All, thanks for the suggestions.

I was practicing the classic prone as described by Tinman inside, and it works with a good surface and targets that are at my level or lower. Not so well on wet, brushy surfaces and with targets above me. Out on the tundra, we don't have a lot of trees to lean against, making the classic back braced sitting less practical. Will be continuing to try to refine my variation of California kneeling, sitting back on my feet.

[Chuck Haggard]

The double kneeling, what Pat Rogers calls the Monica, is only of use for people who have knees that still work perfectly. I am unable to use that style of kneeling at all.

Some of the best handgun shooting I have ever pulled off has been from a back rested sitting with my knees applying inward pressure on either my wrists or forearms.

[Jay Cunningham]

I've experimented with both long range and position pistol shooting recently, and I've come to the following conclusions:

I don't find traditional positions such as prone or sitting or kneeling (positions which provide a strong base for rifles) helpful for my long range pistol shooting. I've found that the best thing for me is a perfect iso stance with my normal grip.

As an aside, a friend of mine who assists me during classes suggested a braced support hand technique which he saw at a PPC match. This is simply bracing the back of the support hand off of something - naturally said something needs to be actually available to brace off of. This did seem to give beneficial results.

[GJM]

Jay, I wonder is this is influenced partly by external conditions and body shape.

I am 6-1, 165 pounds, and find California kneeling to be more stable than when standing upright. I just was shooting 25-100 yards in driving rain with 20-30 mph wind, and the kneeling definitely helped me with stability in that rain.

As an aside, I continue to be convinced that in relative terms, while both are necessary, trigger press is more important than perfect sight alignment for this kind of shooting. Chasing perfect sight alignment can cause you to start, stop and start your press, as opposed to focusing on press and looking for acceptable sight picture which works out better for me.