Are we approaching group shooting the right way?

[JHC]

I once did a drill in a class called "so you think you're good", which amounted to 1 round fired at 25 yards from the draw in <2.5 seconds from concealment, repeated 10 times (for a group of 10) onto a camo. target with no defined aiming point.

All the rounds had to land in about a 5"-6" area to score.

I look at that drill as more of a measure of practical shooting success at distance - landing all 10 rounds in the scoring area on demand. However, you've got to start somewhere and shooting for tiny groups under no time pressure is fun in its own right from time to time.

My primary shooting partner and I warm up with that nearly ever day we shoot. The org he trains security staff for overseas has a much more generous standard than that but I work for under 3 sec, and sometimes press for under 2.5 that you mentioned. 100% in the target you described in 2.5 sec or less is a standard I have not achieved. That's pretty strong.

GJM - I'm tracking . . . for the most part. I don't think slow concentrated precision is deleterious for it's "loading the program" (Proctor phrase) with the deliberate feedback one can absorb from it. But I wouldn't make it the majority of my time spent.

Reading this before I headed out to shoot this AM I used my timer for the 10 shots I fired at 25 yards with my G17 this am. Other than shooting the draw and fire a single referenced above, I can't remember ever putting a timer on my 25 yard "group" shooting. Interesting.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/78036189@N07/14981411759/


edit The shoot on command drill that Wayne mentioned is very cool.

[CCT125US]

My latest cold test might fall in line with what you describe. Although it is shot at 7yds and not 25yds.
NRA B8 printed on 8 1/2 x 11 paper. Any shots off the paper count for zero. From concealment draw and fire 3, record your time. Repeat for a total of five runs. Hit factor is your score (pts / cumulative time). The "harder" version is any out of the black score as zero. I managed to shoot 141 pts in 9.75 seconds yesterday for a score of 14.46 HF. For me it seems like a good test of my practical ability, combining an efficient draw from concealment, recoil recovery and sight tracking.

[Malamute]

I think both slow and fast have validity, but its best to get a mix to be a good all around shot. Perhaps some may benefit from more slow shooting. I've been a little surprised at some groups posted with comments that they were the best over shot by the poster.

I'm probably backwards from most here, I shoot mostly slowly. When I was shooting more, I'd do moving targets for fun, and hunted rabbits year round with pistol and rifle, they were mostly runners. Shooting running rabbits is good practice, as is shooting things thrown in the air, but not many can find safe places to do that. I should get out more. There are some guys shooting IDPA and other games. Would be a good tune up.

[JHC]

I think both slow and fast have validity, but its best to get a mix to be a good all around shot. Perhaps some may benefit from more slow shooting. I've been a little surprised at some groups posted with comments that they were the best over shot by the poster.

I'm probably backwards from most here, I shoot mostly slowly. When I was shooting more, I'd do moving targets for fun, and hunted rabbits year round with pistol and rifle, they were mostly runners. Shooting running rabbits is good practice, as is shooting things thrown in the air, but not many can find safe places to do that. I should get out more. There are some guys shooting IDPA and other games. Would be a good tune up.

Recognizing they are shooting mass produced service pistols vs precision wheelies.

[okie john]

Here at Pistol-Forum, and at any number of other forums, there is almost always a thread going on some variation of "shooting groups at 25 yards (and further)." We have had a bunch of drills of the week like Dot Torture and 300.

I appreciate the necessity of being able to shoot a group for testing ammo and pistols. Under those conditions, using a bench or taking all day might make sense. However, when considering practical shooting competition, hunting and defensive use of the pistol, taking 10 seconds or longer per shot is probably not very useful.

Despite being one of the contributors to the malaise you describe, I agree with your thoughts. I'm training for a handgun hunt this fall, so I've spent this summer working more on slow-fire than I normally would. My speed work is still acceptable, but has suffered somewhat.

It really is all about DVC, isn't it?


Okie John

[Totem Polar]

Maybe that's why your faster shooting looks like a slowfire group?

Speaking of DRT, that's a hell of a comment, and in the first couple of posts, no less.

[Malamute]

Recognizing they are shooting mass produced service pistols vs precision wheelies.

Yes, absolutely, that plays a part. Its just a different approach than what I was familiar with from the dark ages. They are probably much better at the type of drills they practice than I would be (having never ever tried any of them so far).

ETA: Thinking on it a bit more, in the past, it seems many started shooting with 22's, which often shoot very well. After shooting really accurate 22's, it's sort of a let down when shooting guns that will only do 3" or more at 25 (I've sold a number of guns that wouldn't shoot better than 3"). Its just a different standard and objective.

[JohnO]

ETA: Thinking on it a bit more, in the past, it seems many started shooting with 22's, which often shoot very well. After shooting really accurate 22's, it's sort of a let down when shooting guns that will only do 3" or more at 25 (I've sold a number of guns that wouldn't shoot better than 3"). Its just a different standard and objective.

Here is a 5 shot group I shot yesterday with my buddy's brand new M&P 45. Shot walk back style at 5, 7, 10, 15, & 25 meters. Not bad for a mass produced off the shelf gun. It did have Apex ignition parts installed.

[mizer67]

My primary shooting partner and I warm up with that nearly ever day we shoot. The org he trains security staff for overseas has a much more generous standard than that but I work for under 3 sec, and sometimes press for under 2.5 that you mentioned. 100% in the target you described in 2.5 sec or less is a standard I have not achieved. That's pretty strong.

9/10 was my best performance in that class so far; I've done that drill twice but don't practice it regularly. Shooting it with an M&P that could only hold ~6" at 25 the first time was a bit of a letdown. I went a bought a Glock after that class.

I've seen it done (10/10) once by the guy shooting next to me and I would say he was a very good shooter.

Granted "concealment" in this case meant Hawaiian shirts or "shoot me first" vests and OWB holsters mainly, although a few tried it from IWB under T-shirts and the like.

[JWinTN]

I appreciate the necessity of being able to shoot a group for testing ammo and pistols. Under those conditions, using a bench or taking all day might make sense. However, when considering practical shooting competition, hunting and defensive use of the pistol, taking 10 seconds or longer per shot is probably not very useful.

Shooting slow-fire groups at distance has helped me improve my shooting across the board, most specifically in practical shooting competition. It may not prove the same for yourself or others, but I have found only benefit there.