Are we approaching group shooting the right way?

[GJM]

Here at Pistol-Forum, and at any number of other forums, there is almost always a thread going on some variation of "shooting groups at 25 yards (and further)." We have had a bunch of drills of the week like Dot Torture and 300.

I appreciate the necessity of being able to shoot a group for testing ammo and pistols. Under those conditions, using a bench or taking all day might make sense. However, when considering practical shooting competition, hunting and defensive use of the pistol, taking 10 seconds or longer per shot is probably not very useful.

I have come to believe that spending much time shooting slow groups is not just a bad use of training time and ammo, but actually counterproductive to being able to shoot accurate shots under the realistic time constraints you might experience gaming, hunting or defending yourself. The reason for this is once your mind gets comfortable taking all day, it doesn't feel right to just align the sights and press the trigger through without delay.

Earlier this week, I started thinking of a drill to help me improve my ability to press the trigger without delay on a low prob target, and to try to evaluate how much accuracy I might be giving up by shooting that way. My drill was to aim in on a 3x5 at 25 yards, take the slack out of the trigger, and just press the damn trigger in one continuous motion. I would then repeat that, for a total of five or ten shots, and compare that group with a similar number of shots shot traditionally (read slowly). I had no idea how it would turn out, and in discussing this with some other excellent shooters and members here, they had no idea either.

I chickened out of putting the 3x5 on the head, as I wanted to see stray shots, and settled on taping up about a 3x5 of tape on a well used IPSC cardboard target. I decided to use a Glock for this test, as historically all the junk in the Glock trigger has given me fits on 300 drills, and I find the Glock trigger harder to press straight back. By chance, I just got back a Gen 3 G17 that Coldbore Custom cut to a 19 length, which I was looking for an excuse to shoot.

I started out shooting a slow fire group on the head (25 yards, PMC 115 ball, HD sights). Then I got with the pressing the trigger in one motion without delay and repeating. This is what ten quick presses looked like.



My SLOW fire group was maybe 60 or 70 percent of this size. Given that I have spent years doing intermittent slow fire group shooting, and this was my first outing on this, it makes me wonder why I should continue to invest any appreciable time doing traditional pistol slow fire group shooting, and instead practice what I would refer to as "practical" group shooting?

[JHC]

Slowfire doesn't consume more than about 20 rounds per 150-200 round range session for me except a handful of days a year when the weather forces me under a shelter where 25 yd and 50 yard bullseye is all that is available out of the deluge.

In moderate doses I find it a lot of fun. And it is probably walking before running. If one is only shooting 3-5K rounds a year vs 10K one might be walking longer. IDK, speed distance shooting is generally harder and a progression, and I'll admit that slowfire alone doesn't assure it. But I don't think it hurts it.

Then there is handgun hunting. IMO that's a slowfire proposition or pass on the shot for sportsmanship reasons.

There was a fascinating thread here early in the year I think about learning to deliver a cold shot. I thought the best argument was to vary the type of shooting within a range trip from speed to slow precision to close to far etc for many variables because when the mind cycled back to a new shooting challenge it was more like a cold shot.

[JHC]

My SLOW fire group was maybe 60 or 70 percent of this size. Given that I have spent years doing intermittent slow fire group shooting, and this was my first outing on this, it makes me wonder why I should continue to invest any appreciable time doing traditional pistol slow fire group shooting, and instead practice what I would refer to as "practical" group shooting?

Maybe that's why your faster shooting looks like a slowfire group?

[mizer67]

I once did a drill in a class called "so you think you're good", which amounted to 1 round fired at 25 yards from the draw in <2.5 seconds from concealment, repeated 10 times (for a group of 10) onto a camo. target with no defined aiming point.

All the rounds had to land in about a 5"-6" area to score.

I look at that drill as more of a measure of practical shooting success at distance - landing all 10 rounds in the scoring area on demand. However, you've got to start somewhere and shooting for tiny groups under no time pressure is fun in its own right from time to time.

[rsa-otc]

Just about every top shooter I can think of talks about taking it back to basics and shooting groups from time to time. Normally when the weather turns and I have to use an indoor range I'll shoot one or 2 ten round groups on a B-8 or equivalent for score to bring it back to basics. Recently since I am concentrating on moving from the revolver double action trigger to the M&P striker fired trigger I have been shooting 10 rounds on a 1 inch square @ 5 and 7 yards. Again limited to 20 total rounds per session. On my last session I picked up the pace trying to fire one round per second or less while maintaining that group. Still trying for that nice tight group but at a quicker pace.

Groups are good faster groups are better. You just have to keep in mind that the goal is a group and learn to balance that with your speed.

[smithjd]

I don't think basic pistol marksmanship is a waste of time. Working out the ultra-fine details of making a good shot with perfect repetitions is excellent (but not all encompassing) training.

At a Pat McNamara class he remarked that his pistol shooting skills kept through plateaus after shooting good old fashioned 50y bullseye competitions.

Just yesterday was mountain biking with the dog. Came upon porcupine in our path that didn't want to get out of the way. Dog was heeling, but as we got closer was starting to get anxious and break. Not wanting a large vet bill, D/F one round on slow moving target at 30 yards, DRT. Incident only retold as I don't even get 3-5k rds a year anymore. Good bullseye dry fire practice seems to help. I always emphasize the first round, cold bore hit in training, also. Obviously, shot was not on a clock.

[Wayne Dobbs]

GJM.

For several years, I've been using one of Larry Vickers' trigger control drills in a manner similar to what you've shown here. He calls it "command fire" and it requires a timer. At whatever range you wish to conduct the drill (and it needs to be within a reasonable pistol range), you define a tight target zone and set the timer for 0.25 seconds. Line up sights, slack out trigger and on the beep fire a proper trigger controlled shot within the time constraint. It'll drive some folks nuts, but I've started using it on one handed shots and other "sickener" situations. It forces excellent trigger control in a real world time frame. LAV runs it at about 3-5 yards and requires hits INSIDE the x ring of the B-8 bull for a starter.

Give it a try and see what you think.

[SAWBONES]

I don't think basic pistol marksmanship is a waste of time. Working out the ultra-fine details of making a good shot with perfect repetitions is excellent (but not all encompassing) training.

Agreed, only because we see so many who are trying to shoot fast, yet who don't have even the basic elements of sight alignment and trigger control mastered, with the result that many shots won't land anywhere on an 8.5 x 11" target, much less on a smaller zone within that space.

Presumably that doesn't apply to most here.

John Farnam used to train a qualification drill that required consistent timed hits on moving 6 x 8" steel plates attached to a vertical arm ("swinger" target) in order to cause the apparatus to revolve within a certain time frame, shot at around 10-11 meters.
It was an excellent means of training trigger control plus timing, together in an on-demand manner.

[JohnO]

I believe that it makes sense to slow down and get back to the basic fundamentals on a regular basis. Especially when you are drilling with high speed defensive tactics. The root of all shooting is marksmanship, the ability to hit what you are aiming at. Defensive training/drills tend to reduce the time frames to the absolute minimum. When you add in the stress factor of reduced time marksmanship fundamentals can get sloppy and accuracy suffers. There is more to it than just "my group opened up because I had less time".

Unchecked back in the basics and continuing to forge ahead with the "high speed" drills bad habits have a way of appearing and they can be unrecognized. At this point you are developing training scars and programming them into your technique.

Recently I trained with Mike Pannone. Mike started us all out at 25 on a B-8 repair center for an untimed 10 shot group. Throughout both days Mike would break from the drills and send us back to 25 yards to shoot a group. Occasionally it would be timed 10 shots in 10 seconds. I think it was an excellent training progression of drills and marksmanship.

Larry Vickers did similar evolutions in his pistol class. Vickers included his version of the "Test" where he scored it minus 0 in the black bull, minus 3 or 4 in the buff section and minus 5 entirely off the repair center. In a class of slightly over 30 after the last string in the Test, Vickers asked who had a score in the single digits. Vickers' Assistant Instructor and I were the only ones who raised their hands. Many of the guys in the class thought I was responding that I was in single digits for the last string. They were really flabbergasted to find out it was for the entire Test. I mention this not to brag but to illustrate a prevalent mindset of what folks feel is good enough or acceptable accuracy. Vickers came to me and said I needed to "use the scoring rings" because I was "too good" for his rudimentary scoring system.

Another class I participated in where we did similar shot the Test and made frequent interludes back to marksmanship basics was with Northern Red (J.D. Potynsky).

[GJM]

A few thoughts.

I am not suggesting you should run before you can crawl. If you can't make a shot with no time pressure, you need to fix that first. What I am suggesting, is after you have slow fire group skills, the objective ought to be learning to press the trigger straight back quickly, along the lines of what Wayne is describing.

Further, after you possess slow fire skills, unless you are testing ammo/pistol accuracy, or interested in bullseye competition, spending much time shooting slow precision will only make it harder to shoot accurately quickly while gaming, hunting or defending yourself. Bill Rogers says a similar thing about having to break the comfort zone shooters get in with years of shooting slowly.

Joe, I think hunting is a perfect example of what I am talking about. You need to make an accurate enough shot, but you most often don't have all day to do it, since the animal dictates the timing, not you. This was drummed into me by Jeff Cooper -- guys who spend most of their time on the bench, shoots itty bitty groups, are less successful in the field than those who practice getting into position quickly and firing quickly with enough accuracy to hit the right spot. As a result, I spend a small amount of time testing ammo and refining zero, and the bulk of my time in and out of field shooting positions.