NYPD 1999 finally uses JHP

[HCM]

Re: 38 spl LSWC +p - as a youngster, I worked with a medically retired NYC Transit Police Officer who was hit in the head by one of his own rounds which ricocheted back on him. While on duty in the subway, he shot a suspect, striking him in the right side of his abdomen. The round passed through the suspect and ricocheted 2x, coming back and striking the officer in the upper forehead. The round didn't penetrate his skull, it traveled under the skin, following the contour of his skull and came to rest under the skin at the back of his head.

NYC Transit Police were the first to go to 9mm autos, issuing the Glock 19 with 15 round magazines. At the time Bill Bratton was the head of the Transit police. Transit was generally the more progressive of the three depts.

NYPD and the NYC Housing PD followed a few years later, not long before the three forces merged. If I recall correctly, 10 round mags were part of the original proposal for the NYPD transition to 9mm under Ray Kelly, but by the time the transition actually occurred under Bratton and Mayor Giuliani, 15 rounders were issued. The original issue ammo was 115 grain 9mm FMJ.

NYPD is still using the same three duty weapons: S&W 5646, SIG P226 DAO and the Glock 19 with NY plus trigger.

[Chuck Haggard]

Mas documented a number of shoot-through incidents with both the .38s and 9mms, like 18 of them IIRC.

Jim Cirillo and I talked about this at length. It was enough of a problem with the RNL, and later +P LSCW, that the stake-out guys would commonly aim for the butt when shooting fleeing armed robbers. The theory was that there was substantial meat and bone to slow the bullet, and the exit angle made the bullet less dangerous at distance (more likely to hit the pavement than if launched at chest level/parallel to the deck)

[HCM]

Mas documented a number of shoot-through incidents with both the .38s and 9mms, like 18 of them IIRC.

Jim Cirillo and I talked about this at length. It was enough of a problem with the RNL, and later +P LSCW, that the stake-out guys would commonly aim for the butt when shooting fleeing armed robbers. The theory was that there was substantial meat and bone to slow the bullet, and the exit angle made the bullet less dangerous at distance (more likely to hit the pavement than if launched at chest level/parallel to the deck)

I recall they had one Stakeout squad member who shot so many felons in the butt he was nick named the proctologist.

[Rich]

Mas documented a number of shoot-through incidents with both the .38s and 9mms, like 18 of them IIRC.

Jim Cirillo and I talked about this at length. It was enough of a problem with the RNL, and later +P LSCW, that the stake-out guys would commonly aim for the butt when shooting fleeing armed robbers. The theory was that there was substantial meat and bone to slow the bullet, and the exit angle made the bullet less dangerous at distance (more likely to hit the pavement than if launched at chest level/parallel to the deck)

Didn't Jim Cirillo design or tried to design a bullet with a aggressive edge so it wouldn't glance off on head shots.

I happen to personally know of 4 people who all were all shot with a 38spl. One was shot in the fore head and the bullet glanced off . He is also one big guy.
2 were shot in the mouth.
And the other guy caught it in the back of the head.
Also there stay in the hospital was short. even the 2 with that got shot in the mouth.


I also know a of a friend who was shot in the knee up at close range. bullet was a 9mmm 147gr flat nose hard cast.
The bullet slid behind the knee and slid all the way down out by the back of the foot/ankle.
BTW I would of thought the 147gr FN HC would penetrated the knee? But it traveled the less resistant route.

[Rich]

As I recall there was a civilian board that studied the issue and concluded that hollow points were the better option for law enforcement for all the reasons we are familiar with. I have the articles somewhere on a thumb drive. I'll see if I can look them up and provide some links.

And to think Indiana State Police were using hydra shok in there Berretta 92F

[Chuck Haggard]

Didn't Jim Cirillo design or tried to design a bullet with a aggressive edge so it wouldn't glance off on head shots.


.

He did. Wrote about that in his book too. Jim got tired of bullets ricocheting off of a bad guy's head.

I have lost track of the number of people I have seen who were shot in the head and walking around afterwards.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Diallo bounce back - I see that point. I was referring to the initial shot which supposedly occurred because of the misidentification of the wallet and its presentation as that of a firearm. That misinterpretation was the point that started the research on racial bias and weapons ID that John and I discussed. In the defense case, they had a perceptual psychologist lined up to make the case that perception was a constructive act and they may have 'perceived' a weapon even though it wasn't present. She wasn't called IIRC. The race issue was whether or not the person's characteristics actually made a perception of a weapon more likely (so your mind 'saw' it) or there was a lower threshold for action (meaning you are more likely to shoot based on your risk assessment and your view of the consequences of a bad shoot).

Once the first shots were fired and then stuff came back at them, that contributed to the continuation of firing and others firing. I don't know if this was true but at an NTI I was told that the first shot was fired because when the officer saw or perceived a weapon/threat, he stepped backwards off a step. He had his finger on the trigger and the stumble caused the first trigger pull and the action then proceeded. However, this wasn't used in the case presentation as finger on the trigger was not a good thing as compared to the misperception issue.

If this is true - I wasn't there. So there was the processes in the first shot and then the continuation. Each had different processes and interactive components.

Have there been tests of bounce back of various rounds hitting various media at different angles? I've seen a 45 ACP FMJ bounce off a tire and whack a guy in the chest for a big bruise.

[Totem Polar]

I have lost track of the number of people I have seen who were shot in the head and walking around afterwards.

We had a very high profile (racially and, ultimately, sexually charged) case in my town where an OD cop shot a guy in the head with his dept G27 and issue 180gr GDHP. The Vic ran off and easily lived to file suit. I am not you, but my own lay feeling is that any loading can turn in sub-optimal performance if you give it enough chances.

As an aside (stop me if you've heard it, since I've told this story before), the very first time I ever stepped up to shoot a bowling pin match, I center punched the first pin with CorBon's 1000fps version of the FBI load from a 4" K-frame, and the flattened slug came directly back to hit me right on the bridge of my nose. That was also sub-optimal, IMHO.

[Rich]

He did. Wrote about that in his book too. Jim got tired of bullets ricocheting off of a bad guy's head.

I have lost track of the number of people I have seen who were shot in the head and walking around afterwards.

I bet being in LE.