I read a article about OVERPENETRATION that stated the NYD used 115gr 9mm Ball during that time period, and were the last ones to switch to JHP in 1999.
Pistol used was S&W 5900 DAO series and Sigs P226.
Author Mas Ayoob also listed some statistics of bystanders shot NYPD & LAPD
Don't know if its true or not .
I can see it since LE used 38spl Lead RN at one time.
I wonder how many bystanders were shot with the LRN bullet
I`m sure it can penetrate pretty far.
I am a NYC resident and a graduate of Ayoob's “rules of engagement” class, the incident which caused the change was this one
The Shooting of Amadou Diallo occurred on February 4, 1999, when Amadou Diallo,
a 23-year-old immigrant from Guinea, was shot and killed by four New York City
Police Department plain-clothed officers: Sean Carroll, Richard Murphy, Edward McMellon
and Kenneth Boss, who fired a combined total of 41 shots, 19 of which struck Diallo,
outside his apartment at 1157 Wheeler Avenue in the Soundview section of The Bronx.
Us NYC sheep were shocked that the NYPD was going to switch to "cop killing" "inhumane" bullets which had been demonized in the press for so many years.
At that time there was a "joke" on the street: "Next time Ama-dou what the officer tells me."
And it is always amusing to compare the NYPD hit rate (about 20%) with the Tom Given's student hit-rate (about 95%) but of course the two groups were in different situations and trying to accomplish different goals.
I fail to see how the overpenetration issue relates to Diallo. Diallo did start investigations of racial issues in shooting behavior and the processes involved in what is called contagious shooting or sympathetic shooting.
Maybe I missed that in Mas' discussions. Got a reference?
IIRC, the ball rounds over penetrated and then ricocheted back at the officers, making them think they were under fire from Diallo.Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer
- It's not the odds, it's the stakes.
- If you aren't dry practicing every week, you're not serious.....
- "Tache-Psyche Effect - a polite way of saying 'You suck.' " - GG
The New York Times--which has a disproportionate influence on NYC politics--demonized hollow points for years. It reluctantly accepted the NYPD going to a 158 gr. SWC design for its .38's but refused to think sensibly on hollow points. They, after all, were "banned by the Geneva Convention" as being inhumane.
I'm not sure if the Times ever learned the difference between Geneva and the Hague, but apparently the Diallo shooting persuaded them that hollow points had their upside. Or at least something caused the Times from throwing an absolute fit, and in any case it had less power in the Giuliani administration and the NYPD was finally allowed to go to JHP's.
The Times, of course, continues to be a malignant and reactionary force regarding civilian ownership and use of firearms--and firearms remain a subject on which its editorial board is amazingly ignorant.
So it is true that NYPD used BALL back then up till 1999. Wow That just blows my mind.
I wonder if there any statistic's ? how the 115gr ball performed ? how many rds of ball per BG
BTW
Thank you for all this info
As I recall there was a civilian board that studied the issue and concluded that hollow points were the better option for law enforcement for all the reasons we are familiar with. I have the articles somewhere on a thumb drive. I'll see if I can look them up and provide some links.
Scott
Only Hits Count - The Faster the Hit the more it Counts!!!!!!; DELIVER THE SHOT!
Stephen Hillier - "An amateur practices until he can do it right, a professional practices until he can't do it wrong."
They also issued 10 round mags when they switched from the .38 to the 9MM. I don’t know when they let them have normal capacity mags.
In squeaky Lib voice;
Probably in September 2004, when Bush failed to prevent the proliferation of mass bullet assault gun clips from flooding the streets.
Some Links:
http://www.nyc.gov/html/ccrb/downloads/pdf/hollow.pdf
Couple of interesting quotes:
"the Committee unanimously concludes that the decision to move from full metal jackets to hollow-points is consistent with modern, enlightened law enforcement"
"the Committee can state from it's own observations that hollow-points are neither exploding dum-dums nor fragmenting bullets"
"the Department's assessment that full metal jacket bullets present a great risk of pass through and ricochet danger is consistent with our observations."
NY Times Article about the switch:
http://www.nytimes.com/1998/07/09/ny...r-bullets.html
An earlier Times article discussing the subject:
http://www.nytimes.com/1997/03/06/ny...ckers-say.html
Scott
Only Hits Count - The Faster the Hit the more it Counts!!!!!!; DELIVER THE SHOT!
Stephen Hillier - "An amateur practices until he can do it right, a professional practices until he can't do it wrong."
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