Non-Lethal or Less-Than-Lethal Ammunition Effectiveness

[cclaxton]

All this stuff going on in Ferguson got me thinking about non-lethal and less-than-lethal rounds.
I found this website: http://www.conceptsinammunition.com/
I didn't know they had pepper rounds or rubber pellets in addition to bean bags for shotguns.
Are these the state of the art in less-than-lethal?
What are the distances that these can be used without serious injury?
How reliable are they?
What is the best application other than crowd control?

I am kinda liking the idea some are designed not to penetrate walls. It seems to me some of the bean bag or rubber pellet rounds in my home shotgun would be a pretty effective deterrent and be safer to the neighbors and in case of mistaken identity.

Rather than getting into a discussion comparing these to lethal, I would like to see this focus on the effectiveness, reliability, and benefits of these various forms of less-than-lethal rounds for shotgun, pistol and rifle.

Cody

[Tamara]

I don't think it's a good idea to point a 12 gauge shotgun at someone you don't want to kill or seriously injure. There's a reason that police department ones used for less-lethal munitions have orange furniture and aren't used for anything but less-lethal munitions.

[LtDave]

I don't think it's a good idea to point a 12 gauge shotgun at someone you don't want to kill or seriously injure. There's a reason that police department ones used for less-lethal munitions have orange furniture and aren't used for anything but less-lethal munitions.

NEVER NEVER NEVER shoot less lethal rounds out of a gun that you also use with lethal rounds. Recipe for disaster. And, they are called LESS Lethal, not NON Lethal. If you're not On duty LE, trained and with the deep pocket of an agency behind you I wouldn't consider using them in a civilian self defense scenario.

[Lester Polfus]

Ditto to the above two posters.

Back in 2002, I was newly minted as a qualified less lethal shotgun guy, with the 12 gauge Super Sock round. At the start of my shift, I was meticulously checking every round in the less lethal Remington 870 with orange furniture in the trunk of my car, and every round of buckshot for the 870 in the front of my car was in the right home, aware all the while that one of our crusty old sergeants was watching me.

I will never forget the exact words he said to me when I was done. "Look you just finished training so all this stuff is fresh in your mind. Don't ever get slack and blow off that check. Sooner or later somebody is gonna F this up, and I don't want it to be one of us."

Just a couple years ago, the PD right next door zapped a guy with buckshot when they meant to shoot him with a less lethal round. The guy that did it isn't a cop anymore, and there was talk of a criminal prosecution, although I don't think anything ever came of it.

[Lon]

Just a couple years ago, the PD right next door zapped a guy with buckshot when they meant to shoot him with a less lethal round. The guy that did it isn't a cop anymore, and there was talk of a criminal prosecution, although I don't think anything ever came of it.

This was one of the reasons our brass decided to get rid of all buckshot and slugs from inventory (except for SWAT). Shotguns for our patrol guys are strictly LL.

[SWAT Lt.]

I have seen beanbags/Super Socks work, and I have seen them fail. I would not select them for home defense based on any perceived deterrence factor, being safer to the neighbors, or in case of a mistaken identity shooting. Police are trained not to deploy them unless they have another officer with a lethal weapon at the ready with them as back up.

The deterrence factor of any weapon, including the action cycling on an 870, is overrated (i.e. the person you may have to shoot likely won't be as impressed with the sight or sounds of your big gun as you are) and cannot be relied upon. The best thing you can do for yourself and your neighbors is PID your target, watch where you are shooting, and don't miss.

Although less lethal is capable of stopping, or even killing someone (it used to be called non-lethal, which proved to be incorrect), I would not to respond with a gun loaded with them when an intruder breaks in armed with a gun with real bullets.

[Chuck Haggard]

I have seen beanbags/Super Socks work, and I have seen them fail. I would not select them for home defense based on any perceived deterrence factor, being safer to the neighbors, or in case of a mistaken identity shooting. Police are trained not to deploy them unless they have another officer with a lethal weapon at the ready with them as back up.

The deterrence factor of any weapon, including the action cycling on an 870, is overrated (i.e. the person you may have to shoot likely won't be as impressed with the sight or sounds of your big gun as you are) and cannot be relied upon. The best thing you can do for yourself and your neighbors is PID your target, watch where you are shooting, and don't miss.

Although less lethal is capable of stopping, or even killing someone (it used to be called non-lethal, which proved to be incorrect), I would not to respond with a gun loaded with them when an intruder breaks in armed with a gun with real bullets.

^This^


I have hit a number of bad guys with LL 12 gauge rounds. I am not impressed with the effectiveness of such ammunition.

A smart administrator would not allow use of LL from shotguns IMHO, use the gauge for buckshot and slugs, use 40mm for LL. Tough to get a buckshot round into your grenade launcher accidentally.

[Tabasco]

I use rubber buckshot (Fiocchi) for pest control. I live in the country and have chickens. Everyone likes chicken, especially raccoons. I have too many neighbors to make it safe to use lead, so rubber projectiles are the way to go here. LL seems to be better than actually killing raccoons, since if you kill them, another will come along and take over the dead one's territory . Giving them a load of rubber gives them a bad experience and they seem to avoid my property for around a year, while keeping other raccoons out of their territory (and away from my chickens). It seems to have worked well for the last year or so. YMMV

[Mr_White]

This guy was pretty shocked when his 12 gauge rubber pellet load had very little effect: http://www.oregonlive.com/news/orego...ill_on_th.html

It was very funny when I saw the news story - he obviously really believed it would be a pretty effective deterrent. He was just astonished that it had essentially no effect.

[NEPAKevin]

I am a little disappointed to find out the Taser XREP was discontinued.