Why are Browning Hi-Powers so reliable if they don't utilize controlled feed?

[45dotACP]

I will be on the hunt again some day.

But... I have opinions and theories on this one and I'm not Bill Riehl.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wJvT3Cd4iME

Chip McCormick appears to be the father of the 8 round 1911 magazine (or at least a high enough quality one for it to grow popular).

In the above video, Rob Leatham, Chip McCormick, Brian Enos, and other greats from the early 90's chat about shooting, gear, guns, etc. they all are shooting 1911's.

What is interesting to note is all of these early adopters were competitors (in this video, IIRC) in IPSC.

Others feel free to weigh in and tell me I'm wrong; if I am.

I'm getting to the point so be patient.

I've developed my own theory from my own experiences, that unfortunately most 8 round 1911 magazines aren't as reliable as their 7 round counterparts. I've witnessed issues of springs I believe taking sets; this has manifested in failures to lock back, etc. my examples were: Wilson 47D's, Chip McCormick Power Mags, Wolff 8 rounders, Night Hawk Custom flat base 8 rounders, and factory Dan Wesson 8 rounders, and I even upgraded the springs and followers on my DW magazines.

This is also why people who run 1911's change their mag springs more regularly.

Now, any engineer will tell you springs (in most metals) will only wear/weaken by usage. Which is true. However, it is also true that if a spring is stretched or compressed past certain parameters it will not return to it's prior shape. An example would be taking a 1911 magazine spring and stretching it to a straight wire, or putting it in a press and smashing it into a disk.

Now back to IPSC, IPSC requires that guns be in classes. These classes have requirements like weapon size, magazine size. Things like flush fitting magazines or non-stock form factor magazines.

I had a light bulb moment watching that video. Chip McCormick found a way to fit 8 rounds in a 7 round magazine and developed a pretty functional magazine. However, Chip McCormick was also looking for a competitive advantage and once he had one; his competition did the same. Chip being a competitive shooter, didn't need extreme reliability though these magazines were fairly reliable. Example, Norgon extended magazines in AR's. Reliable enough for competition, but not combat.

So, what supports my theory that they're learning the magazine body is too short is both the Tripp Magazine and Wilson's new ETM have longer magazine bodies. Also, manufacturers such as Chip McCormick putting stronger and stronger springs in their magazines.

These are the cutting edge of 1911 magazines. Flat wire springs may change some of the equation, but at this point if I was going to try a 1911 magazine. I'd try Tripp's first, the guy was a founder of STI (The T in STI) (ETA: and I also believe he's a solid designer). I think they're better because I believe the followers are better being partially metal, I like the geometry, and other features.

I also dislike the Chip McCormick followers; but that's another topic.

God bless,

Brandon

ETA: I also think improved follower shape and design in the Tripp's and Wilson has helped mitigate some of the spring issues.

I can go in more detail later.

I'm gonna snowball off ya here. I think feed lip geometry also plays a role. Unless I miss my guess, it was because the shorter OAL of a wadcutter round that the parallel feed lips were designed (because as was pointed out, the 1911 can have issues feeding bullets that are shorter) in order to give the cartridge an earlier release from the control of the magazine so the pressure on the forward part of the follower didn't push the nose of the cartridge up while the rear of the cartridge stayed in the control of the magazine.

This is why the 7 round Colt mags (made my Checkmate I believe) with the tapered feed lips and the dimple on the follower had issues feeding not only the short 185 grain SWC "button" rounds, but also shorter, stubbier hollow points (such as the 200 gr "flying ashtray" that speer made a while back). These would have resulted in feed issues of course, and the mag spring issues you refer to would cause either failures to lock back or a "bolt over base" type malfunction. I'm not Bill, but one of the best things to do with those flush fitting 8 rounders is to put a Tripp Super 7 kit into them. Turns them into 7 round mags, but the reliability to be had is worth it...

This is all stuff I've read. I only just acquired a few hybrid style magazines, and class kinda puts the kibosh on loading up more ammo to play around with. Up til now I've been using CMC and Wilson mags with no problems...I just like to science.

[Tamara]

I've developed my own theory from my own experiences, that unfortunately most 8 round 1911 magazines aren't as reliable as their 7 round counterparts.

This has nothing to do with a single-stack mag vs. a double-column/single-feed mag.

[BLR]

Thread title says it all.

Also, if Bill Reihl chimes in, I have a question:

What 1911 magazines do you prefer and why? I'm thinking of picking up some CMC, or Tripp mags.

P35s are reliable because of the magazine. Notice the 92/39/226/USP/P30/etc all look like the HP mag? There's a reason.

The reason, in practice, most double column 9mm mags are more reliable is because they prevent any interaction between the top and second from top round's rims from interacting.

The reason, in practice, most single column mags have trouble, it because the top and second round's rim interact in a major way. Simple as that. Take the mag out of the equation, a 1911 is a P35 is a 39 is a 92, and so on.

[BWT]

This has nothing to do with a single-stack mag vs. a double-column/single-feed mag.

You are 100% correct. However, he asked Bill about 1911 magazines in the OP.

I have a very limited exposure to HP's.

[BWT]

I'm gonna snowball off ya here. I think feed lip geometry also plays a role. Unless I miss my guess, it was because the shorter OAL of a wadcutter round that the parallel feed lips were designed (because as was pointed out, the 1911 can have issues feeding bullets that are shorter) in order to give the cartridge an earlier release from the control of the magazine so the pressure on the forward part of the follower didn't push the nose of the cartridge up while the rear of the cartridge stayed in the control of the magazine.

This is why the 7 round Colt mags (made my Checkmate I believe) with the tapered feed lips and the dimple on the follower had issues feeding not only the short 185 grain SWC "button" rounds, but also shorter, stubbier hollow points (such as the 200 gr "flying ashtray" that speer made a while back). These would have resulted in feed issues of course, and the mag spring issues you refer to would cause either failures to lock back or a "bolt over base" type malfunction. I'm not Bill, but one of the best things to do with those flush fitting 8 rounders is to put a Tripp Super 7 kit into them. Turns them into 7 round mags, but the reliability to be had is worth it...

This is all stuff I've read. I only just acquired a few hybrid style magazines, and class kinda puts the kibosh on loading up more ammo to play around with. Up til now I've been using CMC and Wilson mags with no problems...I just like to science.

Fascinating stuff and I agree with you.

Thank you for posting. Part of what made me leave 1911's (as my EDC) for a Glock was I was tired of trying to figure out the magazine situation, I wanted better OEM Magazines, I wanted a better finish, and I liked 9mm; among other things.

Anyway, TMI.

[Magic_Salad0892]

BWT. I shoot a Commander, and I do agree with what you're saying about the Tripp magazines, which is specifically why I was looking at them. I was gonna get some Tripp 8 round Cobramags, and some Super 7 kits.

[Magic_Salad0892]

P35s are reliable because of the magazine. Notice the 92/39/226/USP/P30/etc all look like the HP mag? There's a reason.

The reason, in practice, most double column 9mm mags are more reliable is because they prevent any interaction between the top and second from top round's rims from interacting.

The reason, in practice, most single column mags have trouble, it because the top and second round's rim interact in a major way. Simple as that. Take the mag out of the equation, a 1911 is a P35 is a 39 is a 92, and so on.

That makes sense. So you're saying that controlled feed vs. push feed has nothing to do with that reliability?

[Rich]

I used cheap shooting star mag`s for my Colt C.E.1911. never had any problems. Of coarse this has been many years ago.so I don't know if CM changed there specs

[Rosco Benson]

The follower used in the Chip McCormick mags was invented by the late Charlie Kelsey, of Devel fame. Charlie had magazines manufactured (by whom I don't know) and offered them for sale. At the time, an 8-round 1911 mag was quite an advantage in IPSC shooting.

Rosco

[BWT]

BWT. I shoot a Commander, and I do agree with what you're saying about the Tripp magazines, which is specifically why I was looking at them. I was gonna get some Tripp 8 round Cobramags, and some Super 7 kits.

Awesome, perhaps the Wilson ETM's are worth a glance? I want to try the Tripp's if/when I go after another 1911.