Ferguson discussion thread (FERGUDISHU)

[Alpha Sierra]

There is a place and time for militarization. IMO the local PD yoinked it big time when their response to what was then (mostly?) peaceful protesting was sending out guys in camo, perched on top of armored cars and pointing rifles at everyone.

John Hearne had a really excellent post about gear...speaking as a non-LE observer, gear isn't the problem, it was the time and place and manner of the gear's use. Have it ready to use, keep it close at hand, have cops in reserve ready to go, but until violence and looting breaks out tear gas, rubber bullets and pointing rifles at people should not be part of your crowd control plan. Once violence and looting break out, then they should definitely be part of that plan.

I don't know. This whole thing is such a mess and was handled so badly by everyone involved I'm not sure where to begin. I will say that I am disturbed at how the media has come down unquestioningly on the side of the protesters and that nobody is challenging those moronic claims that this officer "executed" Mr. Brown in cold blood when this may well have been a justifiable use of force against a 6' 4", 300lb man who had just committed a "strong arm robbery"... Everyone on the morning news shows and in government are falling all over themselves to feel everyone's pain and condemn a shooting that could well have been appropriate.

The one-sided reporting, complete lack of knowledge and even curiosity about police equipment, use of force, and etc., on the part of the press is disheartening. Not unexpected, but disheartening.

You saved me the trouble of writing a post. Well said.

[GardoneVT]

My experience is a bit different from that based upon my own dealings with the media, and yes, I have dealt with numerous national stories. I have had very few instances where I felt there was an intentional push in a certain direction.

Once was an Atlanta TV reporter, and that situation was quickly rectified. Another was in an interview with an LA Times reporter who kept trying to manufacture a quote to fit the template of his story, and I wouldn't give it to him.

I have had far more headaches stemming from a partial quote than anything else. Most of these I do not believe where intentional.

It may be a regional thing, as the editor was cheif of a Baltimore based paper. Perhaps southern journalists are more ethical as a matter of culture.

[Terence]

Speaking of the media, did you folks catch this little gem on the Tweeter? The 'Justice' Correspondent from Huffpo put up a picture of those orange foam ear plugs and asked if anyone could confirm that they were 'rubber bullets."

https://twitter.com/ryanjreilly/stat...81295359741952

[jlw]

It may be a regional thing, as the editor was cheif of a Baltimore based paper. Perhaps southern journalists are more ethical as a matter of culture.

As I wrote, I have dealt with numerous national level stories, and I even cited the LA Times as in the LA in California. I've been interviewed by several outlets out of NYC and numerous national print and broadcast media outlets and even a few from overseas.

[Shellback]

Media editors can't stand out from their peers unless they write inflammatory articles, and more press get promoted smearing LE then praising them.

I don't doubt what you're saying but you do get more flys with honey than vinegar. Our local paper tends to do an ok job, depending on the circumstances.

It is being justified as such (not kidding).

I was just going for a chuckle.

[John Hearne]

shooting rubber bullets and gas canisters at the press was frickin' stoopid from a PR perspective.

I've been told that the reason the media garnered such attention was that they were lighting up the police (probably intentionally) and making it much easier for them to be targeted by rioters and whoever else might have a grudge and a few rounds to burn.

[jlw]

One other point probably of note is the modern "blog" media. It's no longer just the traditional company folks; it's folks with internet connections trying to get the most extreme stories they can find with no shortage of people to gobble up such "stories". There are also "independents" that are out trying to get stories that they can then sell to the traditional media outlets. You'll see far more shenanigans out of such folks than you will the traditional folks who will still be there during the slow times and want access. They don't want to burn their bridges.

If you run a hit piece, which is perfectly your right to do, you won't get the story of a little girl being reunited with her lost pony...

[John Hearne]

Interesting response from http://www.lawofficer.com/article/li...ain-ronald-s-j

I have to call you out.

I don’t care what the media says. I expect them to get it wrong and they often do. But I expect you as a veteran law enforcement commander—talking about law enforcement—to get it right.

Unfortunately, you blew it. After days of rioting and looting, last Thursday you were given command of all law enforcement operations in Ferguson by Governor Jay Nixon. St. Louis County PD was out, you were in. You played to the cameras, walked with the protestors and promised a kinder, gentler response. You were a media darling. And Thursday night things were better, much better.

But Friday, under significant pressure to do so, the Ferguson Police released the name of the officer involved in the shooting of Michael Brown. At the same time the Ferguson Police Chief released a video showing Brown committing a strong-arm robbery just 10 minutes before he was confronted by Officer Darren Wilson.

Many don’t like the timing of the release of the video. I don’t like that timing either. It should have been released sooner. It should have been released the moment FPD realized that Brown was the suspect.

Captain Johnson, your words during the day on Friday helped to fuel the anger that was still churning just below the surface. St. Louis County Police were told to remain uninvolved and that night the rioting and looting began again. For much too long it went on mostly unchecked. Retired St. Louis County Police Chief Tim Fitch tweeted that your “hug-a-looter” policy had failed.

Boy did it.

And your words contributed to what happened Friday night and on into the wee hours of Saturday. According to the St. Louis Post Dispatch, you said the following regarding the release of the video: “There was no need to release it,” Johnson said calling the reported theft and the killing entirely different events.

Well Captain, this veteran police officer feels the need to respond. What you said is, in common police vernacular—bullshit. The fact that Brown knew he had just committed a robbery before he was stopped by Officer Wilson speaks to Brown’s mindset. And Captain, the mindset of a person being stopped by a police officer means everything, and you know it.

Let’s consider a few examples:
On February 15, 1978 Pensacola Police Officer David Lee conducted a vehicle check. He didn’t know what the sole occupant of the vehicle had recently done, but the occupant did. Who was he? Serial killer Ted Bundy. Bundy attempted to disarm Lee. Lee was able to retain his firearm and eventually took Bundy into custody.

On April 19, 1995 Oklahoma State Trooper Charlie Hangar stopped a vehicle for minor traffic violations. He didn’t know that 90 minutes earlier the traffic violator, Timothy McVeigh, killed 168 people with a truck bomb at the Murrah Federal Building. But McVeigh sure knew it, didn’t he? Fortunately, given his training and experience Hangar was able to take McVeigh into custody for carrying a concealed firearm. It was days later before it was determined that McVeigh was responsible for the bombing.

On May 31, 2003 then-rookie North Carolina police officer, Jeff Postell, arrested a man digging in a trash bin on a grocery store parking lot—an infraction that would rise to about the level of jaywalking. Postell didn’t know that he had just captured Eric Rudolph, the man whom years earlier had killed and injured numerous people with bombs and was on the FBI’s Ten Most Wanted list.

So now, let’s consider Ferguson Officer Darren Wilson’s stop of Michael Brown. Apparently Wilson didn’t know that Brown had just committed a strong-arm robbery. But Brown did! And that Captain, is huge.

Allegedly, Brown pushed Wilson and attempted to take Wilson’s gun. We’re also being told that Officer Wilson has facial injuries suffered during the attempt by Brown to disarm him. Let’s assume for a moment those alleged acts by Brown actually occurred. Would Brown have responded violently to an officer confronting him about jaywalking? Maybe, but probably not.

Is it more likely that he would attack an officer believing that he was about to be taken into custody for a felony strong-arm robbery? Absolutely.

Officer Wilson survived the encounter with Brown as did Lee, Hangar, and Postell. Michael Brown didn’t survive and it’s too soon to say if Officer Wilson’s use of deadly force was justified and legal. You and I both know that not all officers survive such confrontations. Officers die in incidents like this Captain Johnson, including a couple that I remember from your own organization:

On April 15, 1985 Missouri Trooper Jimmie Linegar was shot and killed by a white supremacist he and his partner stopped at a checkpoint; neither Trooper Linegar nor his partner were aware that the man they had stopped had just been indicted by a federal grand jury for involvement in a neo-Nazi group accused of murder. The suspect immediately exited the vehicle and opened fire on him with an automatic weapon.

Just a month before, Missouri Trooper James M. Froemsdorf was shot and killed—with his own gun—after making a traffic stop. When the Trooper made that stop he didn’t know that the driver was wanted on four warrants out of Texas—But again the suspect knew it.

So Captain Johnson, I guess the mindset and recently committed crimes of the suspects that murdered those Missouri Troopers didn’t mean anything. The stops by the Troopers, as you have said, are entirely different events right?

Bullshit.

[jlw]

Amen.

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I don't know the laws in every state, but under GA's constitution and statutory law, our governor would have absolutely no authority to take the actions that the Mizzou governor did. According to the St. Louis County prosecutor, the governor's actions there have no basis in state law either.

[Totem Polar]

As an aside, I don't think I've seen this posted yet:

http://www.ijreview.com/2014/08/1686...uson-shooting/