Ferguson discussion thread (FERGUDISHU)

[John Hearne]

I will support what the jury decides in this case. I am big supporter of jury verdicts because it is still the best process we have to determine guilt.

Does this include Grand Juries? If the Grand Jury does not find probable cause to charge the officer, will you support that?

- Changes to the protocols used by Law Enforcement to prevent over-reacting with lethal weapons, armored vehicles, and tear gas BEFORE they are actually needed;

Since most LE agencies don't have a crystal ball, equipment tends to get deployed before it's needed or after it's too late. Since exact timing isn't likely, which do you prefer? Is there a number of wounded or dead officers that crosses the magical threshold to allow officers the equipment they need to fulfill their role?

- Police agencies ensuring that their officers training is up to date and role-playing scenarios are done regularly and the threat protocols followed stringently;

Are you willing to fund this? What are you willing to not fund to support this?

- Internal remedies to ensure LEO's and their officers are treating minorities with the same level and type of enforcement as they would anyone.

For years a whole lot of left-wing leaning researchers have tried to show systematic bias by the police towards minorities. Nobody has done this in a convincing fashion. The best they can do is cite numbers that create an illusion of bias without the rigor to examine RATES which is the only valid way to compare. These are the same researchers who refuse to factor in the rate at which different races commit crimes, and especially violent felonies.

[Shellback]

President Obama sent three Whitehouse aides to the funeral of 18 year old Michael Brown in Ferguson, MO.

When Margaret Thatcher died last year, no official government representative was sent.

[MDS]

While we're drafting a perfect-world blueprint:

What I hope comes out of this is:

- Kitten canoes stop committing violent felonies then beating up on cops then lying through their kitten-canoe teeth to spark a kitten-storm of a riot.


You realize the cops were the victim here, right? And that blaming them, or even focusing on all the woulda/coulda/shoulda prevention tactics, sounds and looks and smells like blaming the rape victim for wearing red and not urinating herself?

[RoyGBiv]

When Margaret Thatcher died last year, no official government representative was sent.

If I was elected President today, that would be my first foreign trip. To right that wrong. I was furious, but not surprised.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Diane Rehm on NPR had a show on police use of force - heard part on the way to work. http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/20...e-deadly-force

There is the usual huff and puff but Bill Lewinsky and an LEO gave reasonable analyses for those not aware of the contingencies. Lewinsky handled the shooting to stop and why not wound issue. Also, he discussed the aggressive priming questions of whether the equipment primes the crowd to aggress and whether the equipment might cause the officers to be overly aggressive.

[Shellback]

Walter Williams laying it down... Small snippet and the rest is right on point.

To begin to get a handle on the answer, let’s pull up a few historical facts about black Americans.

In 1950, female-headed households were 18 percent of the black population. Today it’s close to 70 percent. One study of 19th-century slave families found that in up to three-fourths of the families, all the children lived with the biological mother and father. In 1925 New York City, 85 percent of black households were two-parent households. Herbert Gutman, author of “The Black Family in Slavery and Freedom, 1750-1925,” reports, “Five in six children under the age of six lived with both parents.” Also, both during slavery and as late as 1920, a teenage girl raising a child without a man present was rare among blacks.

A study of 1880 family structure in Philadelphia found that three-quarters of black families were nuclear families (composed of two parents and children). What is significant, given today’s arguments that slavery and discrimination decimated the black family structure, is the fact that years ago, there were only slight differences in family structure among racial groups.

Coupled with the dramatic breakdown in the black family structure has been an astonishing growth in the rate of illegitimacy. The black illegitimacy rate in 1940 was about 14 percent; black illegitimacy today is over 70 percent, and in some cities, it is over 80 percent.

The point of bringing up these historical facts is to ask this question, with a bit of sarcasm: Is the reason the black family was far healthier in the late 1800s and 1900s that back then there was far less racial discrimination and there were greater opportunities? Or did what experts call the “legacy of slavery” wait several generations to victimize today’s blacks?

The Census Bureau pegs the poverty rate among blacks at 28.1 percent.

A statistic that one never hears about is that the poverty rate among intact married black families has been in the single digits for more than two decades, currently at 8.4 percent. FOLLOW LINK

[cclaxton]

Does this include Grand Juries? If the Grand Jury does not find probable cause to charge the officer, will you support that?

Yes. Although I thought McColloch should have been replaced because of the perception issue.

Since most LE agencies don't have a crystal ball, equipment tends to get deployed before it's needed or after it's too late. Since exact timing isn't likely, which do you prefer? Is there a number of wounded or dead officers that crosses the magical threshold to allow officers the equipment they need to fulfill their role?

I have no issue with LE Agencies owning the equipment necessary to quell riots and use lethal force. My concern with this is HOW and WHEN it's deployed. I am not an advocate of the overwhelming force strategy. I think that just antagonizes the community when that is the very issue they are protesting. I think there needs to be a "measured application of force" with appropriate backup ready to go. I also think it's better to distribute LEOs rather than create a perimeter of force.

Are you willing to fund this? What are you willing to not fund to support this?

There are very few tax rate hikes that I will vote against at the local level. But then again, Fairfax County is already well-taxed and well funded.

For years a whole lot of left-wing leaning researchers have tried to show systematic bias by the police towards minorities. Nobody has done this in a convincing fashion. The best they can do is cite numbers that create an illusion of bias without the rigor to examine RATES which is the only valid way to compare. These are the same researchers who refuse to factor in the rate at which different races commit crimes, and especially violent felonies.

It's easy to say that researchers are "left leaning" when their results show police bias. Actually some of the studies I have seen do actually factor in the rate that different communities/races commit crimes. This is an area where political partisanship and rhetoric starts to play a big role in the discussion of these studies. This is not directed at you, but nobody likes hearing that a study conflicts with their belief of how the world works. I come from the perspective of accepting the studies conclusions as long as their basis and data are good, until proven otherwise.

But setting that aside, the black community is sending a message that there is bias and excessive use of force, and that is a political situation that should be addressed. We should look at what we can do to make improvements, and that is why I listed things the black community should be doing as well. But to try to argue that there is no bias, whether right or wrong, is just going to inflame the protesters and is not going to help make progress.
Cody

[cclaxton]

While we're drafting a perfect-world blueprint:
- Kitten canoes stop committing violent felonies then beating up on cops then lying through their kitten-canoe teeth to spark a kitten-storm of a riot.
You realize the cops were the victim here, right? And that blaming them, or even focusing on all the woulda/coulda/shoulda prevention tactics, sounds and looks and smells like blaming the rape victim for wearing red and not urinating herself?

I didn't blame either side. I just said I thought they both behaved badly and both did some things right.
I was trying to focus on making improvements so these kinds of events don't happen in the future and both sides learn to handle it better if they do. Last time I checked there is nothing wrong with improving ourselves.
Cody

[5pins]

Young white unarmed man shot by nonwhite police officer and no riot! Apparently people are going to wait until an investigation is complete.


http://www.deseretnews.com/article/8...ra.html?pg=all

[John Hearne]

There are very few tax rate hikes that I will vote against at the local level. But then again, Fairfax County is already well-taxed and well funded.

And if these tax hikes slow economic growth further limiting the rise of minorities? Personally, I am tired of hearing what people want to fund, I want to hear what they are willing to cut.

I come from the perspective of accepting the studies conclusions as long as their basis and data are good, until proven otherwise....But setting that aside, the black community is sending a message that there is bias and excessive use of force, and that is a political situation that should be addressed.

I'm always confused by this. Do people honestly think that police contact whites committing crimes and let them go? Do the police let white folks assault them and not use force? Do the police allow whites to point weapons at them without responding with deadly force? Do whites get to make furtive movements during a traffic stop and not have guns pointed at them?

What is often lost in the noise is that socio-economic status is fairly predictive of criminality. In America, race serves a fairly good proxy for economic status. Knowing that white folks don't just get let off, I suspect that we are not separating out the two similar but distinctly different factors very well.

I spent five minutes on Google Scholar looking for police bias studies. I didn't check out the "pay to read" articles, but I was amazed at the ones I found.

On the topic of vehicle searches by police: "our test results are consistent with the hypothesis of no racial prejudice against African-American motorists. However, if police have utility only for searches yielding large drug finds, then our analysis would suggest bias against white drivers"

On DUI arrests: "It is concluded that the high ADWI rate among the minority and disadvantaged groups probably reflects accurately a greater frequency of drunken driving among them rather than a police bias in arrests"

On police arrest decisions: "This paper examines the degree to which race influences police arrest decisions. .... We find little evidence of suspect-directed racial bias."

From my limited research and years spent working in LE in three different areas, VA/MD, Las Vegas, and the Deep South, I just don't see the extensive bias that the black community laments. Am I aware of incidents involving excessive use of force? Yes, I am. The trooper in question, who is now a Federal inmate, abused everyone excessively regardless of race.

IIRC, it was Thomas Sowell who coined the terms hard and soft racism. Hard racism is what everyone thinks of - hating others and acting negatively towards them based solely on their race and your preconceived notions of that race. Soft racism is typically seen when we set lower standards and the "bless your heart mentality."

There is very little hard racism left in American law enforcement. I'm not saying it's non-existent but it is extremely rare. What I see is the soft racism of lowered expectations for behavior. This is typically seen by police deliberately not working minority neighborhoods. We now know with a good certainty, that in the long run, the regular enforcement of minor violations sets a tone and environment in which criminality cannot flourish. When the police don't police minorities as aggressively as they do other groups, then the long term interests of that minority group are harmed not helped. When the police say "let 'em kill each other and we'll do the reports afterwards" the minority communities aren't being helped.

There is a political problem in this country in relation to policing of minority groups. Most of the problems now lay with the minority groups. They need to understand that worshiping criminals as their default role models is not beneficial. They need to realize that when they are stopped by the police, they are not being "harrassed." When a minority person does not comply with verbal commands and resists arrest and gets hurt - that is not bias. They need to recognize that the police are doing a difficult job and that how they interact with the police will drive the direction the contact takes. See 1:50 on this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj0mtxXEGE8

Fifty years ago, civil rights activists (black and white) rallied against and overcame profound prejudices and injustices. Today, "civil rights activists" are trying to overcome poorly perceived prejudices and injustices that scarcely exist. Continuing to raise the hue and cry at the same, or greater level, doesn't solve the problem and dishonors a great history. We have reached the point where the problems of the minority communities are largely internal and no longer external.