The Islamic State

[JHC]

That's because they continue to enlist/accept commissions.

And why wouldn't they? There is NOTHING comparable with the good and bad of it.

I have two in two different Infantry BCTs. These units (including and even especially NCOs with combat patches) are chomping for another bite at the apple. That's how the professional "legion" is wired. That day is coming. I think it should wait if possible for a few years when we have a CinC. But if ISIS moves on Jordan, all bets are off and its probable ON at that point.

[Odin Bravo One]

I think the author of the article Fred linked for us on Letters of Marque & Reprisal has lost touch with reality. Not only the fact that our political institution has evolved significantly since 1812, but also in the practical appication and his assessment of "quickly & cheaply" in the modern world. "Could" it work? I personally doubt it. But it's not an option any of our recent politicians (Left, Right, Middle) would seriously entertain.

You really don't want to poke the bear, kid, because we tend to overreact and break stuff. Scare us bad enough, and we'll make your cities glow until your grandkids are born with three heads. We talk a good game of peace and democracy, but push come to shove, we have visited wholesale indiscriminate horror and slaughter on lands that would have made Sennacherib shake in his sandals, and we did it within living memory. Sure, we'll help stack the bricks up again when we're done, but that's small consolation to the bodies buried under 'em.

Perhaps. But history has also shown us that whatever technlogies or weapons we create to inflict higher numbers of casualties than the current record holders, the final outcome will not change. A physician invented the Gatling gun, in hopes it's use on the battlefield would make war more effecient, thus less enduring, therefore producing less cripples and dead. Didn't have the end state he envisioned. The Nobel Peace Prize.......so named for the inventor of dynamite, a compound so horrifying at the time as to make future combat between armies so equipped, "unthinkable". It's chemical offspring, modern TNT, is now the standard unit of measure for explosive power. Using Oppenheimer's children in Japan as a capabilities demonstration has not prevented war since their use, with every enemy we have faced knowing that we possess the power.

Seeing as these people hail from the same region as Hammurabi, it makes sense that they understand the most important aspect of power........"Fear is maintained by dread of punishment, which never fails."

We have the ability to impose such punishment. But not the will.

"Quickly & cheaply" in terms of a solution to the issue on discussion is an attainable goal. But it requires fighting to win. In Somalia, we played not to lose. In Afghanistan, we have been playing not to lose. In Iraq, we played not to lose. Even in Libya, where our military involvement was "limited", we played not to lose.

I do not believe the American people, or the Court of World Opinion (with Islam currently the second largest religion in the world) have the stomach to do what is necessary to end this "quickly & cheaply".

That's precisely what they'll do.

I'm not sure I see that in this country's future. I suspect that if we get to that state, it will be due to another war between the states.

ISIS/ISIL are as bad as the Nazi's were in WWII. I wish I was young enough to go over there and help to eliminate this evil from the planet.
This is like trying to stop Nazi Germany before it exterminated millions of people. We should do it, and start now.
Cody

“When we deny the EVIL within ourselves, we dehumanize ourselves, and we deprive ourselves not only of our own destiny but of any possibility of dealing with the EVIL of others.”

Once again our leaders failed to understand the culture, judged the situation in our 21st century idealism and values, failed to stay long enough to change the culture and are shocked at the results. How often do we have to go through this exercise before the powers that be understand this. You can't just deal with a culture routed in 16th century forcing our 21st century culture on them and think that there will be a happy outcome. While you have the big stick they will toe the line all the while hate and animosity will be brewing in the background, the moment you take the stick away that hate and animosity will bubble over and burn your fingers.

The problem I had with Bush Jr. was that he dealt with the situation like once they had democracy/freedom that everyone would be happy campers. The problem was that the culture was that unless your sect/tribe/religion was in complete control you weren't free.

One of my biggest problems with Hillary as Secretary of State was that she would travel to these countries that viewed women as second class and force them to deal with her as an equal. All the while the folks on the other side of the table were steaming at the insult it was that they had to deal with a woman. That doesn't help us with these cultures. I don't think their way is right, I'm saying that if you wish to earn their lasting respect and cooperation you can't just insult them by forcing your values on them. This kind of change comes gradually/generationally and best internally.

Interesting observations. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Indeed there is more to the issues of the region than can be relayed and understood from inaccurate news reports, and propaganda.

[RoyGBiv]

I'm not sure I see that in this country's future. I suspect that if we get to that state, it will be due to another war between the states.

The sides are already lining up. The Middle against the Two Ends.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014...off-gop-rival/

If Hickenlooper loses in November, Bullock will be the lone Democratic governor left standing between California and Missouri.

[Mike C]

JHC, I was speaking in particular to the comments by the Jihadist that they embarrassed us in Iraq. Even looking through the website which link you posted, though not all due to the amount of information that is on there, (awesome by the way thank you) I fail to see that we were embarrassed. If you feel different I would like to hear your definition of embarrassment as it relates to our countries war and occupation of Iraq specifically as it relates to ISI. In my mind, I don't know exactly what the Jihadi was referring to so I can only guess at what he was referring to. If he was referring to the casualty lists, I wouldn't define embarrassment as loss, as sick as that may sound. This is not a war of attrition we will never bleed them out nor they us because for every one mindless uneducated tool we kill three to five sprout up in his place. Just as well we will not give up because despite all hardships no American likes having their way of life or family fu$#@! with.

This is a war is one of ideology or religious fanaticism whether others want to admit it or not. It is a fact that we will forever have to wave the big stick to keep these idiots in line. Make no mistake as Tam pointed out don't poke the freaking bear. Americans really do not like to have their way of life screwed with. We will take that big stick shove it up the third POC or beat the ever living s#$% out of someone with it if it comes down to it, this all despite the pussification that is taking place in our education system.

Before I go refill my glass and get some fresh stones from the freezer let me say one last thing. Maybe I am a tool bag looking at things through the wrong end of the spotting scope maybe not but one thing is for sure I see no end in sight and I am not naive enough to believe that this is going to be finished over night or in the next decade. I personally really like the idea of Letters of Marque & Reprisal after reading the article that was provided. More than enough blood has been spilt, brothers and sisters maimed but if for some dumb a@# reason that's a no-go, not a problem. Big F'ing stick it is. I have zero issue regardless of injuries strapping up again to go give some more of these a'holes a permanent dirt nap. I am only embarrassed by the way in which our government handled the situation. Not by our tactics, nor the attrition rates, and certainly not in the way our Officers and Generals handled things, or we on the ground have conducted ourselves, (obviously the few nut jobs excluded).

[cclaxton]

I don't think it's useful to play the blame game. Who's to say that a Republican administration would have made anything different, or a Democratic one during Bush years.

I was against the Iraq war. The problem is we broke it...now we own it. With Afghanistan I was behind it 1000%.

But ISIS/ISIL is different. These people are consumed with their own righteousness and are the beginnings of a Islamic Fascism that could be worse than Nazi Germany. Nazi Germany really depended on Adolph Hitler and his loyal servants. ISIS/ISIL is like a virus...every individual has the same DNA.

They have declared death to everyone in the world except for those who convert to their brand of radical Islam.

There is no giving peace a chance with these people.
Cody

[Tamara]

Seeing as these people hail from the same region as Hammurabi, it makes sense that they understand the most important aspect of power........"Fear is maintained by dread of punishment, which never fails."

We have the ability to impose such punishment. But not the will.

I dunno. I dunno what we'd do if NASCAR America were sufficiently terrified, but I don't imagine it would be pretty (and have no delusions it would be "permanent", except for those directly under the bombs.) As you alluded, we're a big country composed, by and large, of little men these days. Bob Heinlein had a quote that was something like "Never frighten a little man; he'll kill you." All the head-chopping and VBIEDing on the far side of the globe has only titillated Middle America; they have not frightened Joe Sixpack and Suzy Soccermom. Yet.

I'm talking the same quasi-libertarian isolationist line now that I was in '03, but let 'em set off bombs in Lucas Oil Stadium and I reckon I'll be out there in the street, clamoring to "Burn the nest!" like everybody else.

ETA: Also, thinking back to the mood thirteen years ago, the perpetrators of the attack on Manhattan had one thing in their favor: They were stateless actors. By declaring a "caliphate" and drawing borders and claiming nation-state status, IS has also drawn a handy bullseye around itself in a way AQ never did.

[JHC]

JHC, I was speaking in particular to the comments by the Jihadist that they embarrassed us in Iraq. Even looking through the website which link you posted, though not all due to the amount of information that is on there, (awesome by the way thank you) I fail to see that we were embarrassed. If you feel different I would like to hear your definition of embarrassment as it relates to our countries war and occupation of Iraq specifically as it relates to ISI. In my mind, I don't know exactly what the Jihadi was referring to so I can only guess at what he was referring to. If he was referring to the casualty lists, I wouldn't define embarrassment as loss, as sick as that may sound. This is not a war of attrition we will never bleed them out nor they us because for every one mindless uneducated tool we kill three to five sprout up in his place. Just as well we will not give up because despite all hardships no American likes having their way of life or family fu$#@! with.

This is a war is one of ideology or religious fanaticism whether others want to admit it or not. It is a fact that we will forever have to wave the big stick to keep these idiots in line. Make no mistake as Tam pointed out don't poke the freaking bear. Americans really do not like to have their way of life screwed with. We will take that big stick shove it up the third POC or beat the ever living s#$% out of someone with it if it comes down to it, this all despite the pussification that is taking place in our education system.

Before I go refill my glass and get some fresh stones from the freezer let me say one last thing. Maybe I am a tool bag looking at things through the wrong end of the spotting scope maybe not but one thing is for sure I see no end in sight and I am not naive enough to believe that this is going to be finished over night or in the next decade. I personally really like the idea of Letters of Marque & Reprisal after reading the article that was provided. More than enough blood has been spilt, brothers and sisters maimed but if for some dumb a@# reason that's a no-go, not a problem. Big F'ing stick it is. I have zero issue regardless of injuries strapping up again to go give some more of these a'holes a permanent dirt nap. I am only embarrassed by the way in which our government handled the situation. Not by our tactics, nor the attrition rates, and certainly not in the way our Officers and Generals handled things, or we on the ground have conducted ourselves, (obviously the few nut jobs excluded).

I'm guessing maybe you are thinking of another poster other than me. The Baathists, the Muj, the ALQ in Iraq all got murdered by the bushels by the US mil. I think I am in 100% agreement with you.

The jihadi on film isn't referring to any objective measure. He's just running his mouth. They all have a little Baghdad Bob in them.

[TGS]

I dunno. I dunno what we'd do if NASCAR America were sufficiently terrified, but I don't imagine it would be pretty (and have no delusions it would be "permanent", except for those directly under the bombs.) As you alluded, we're a big country composed, by and large, of little men these days. Bob Heinlein had a quote that was something like "Never frighten a little man; he'll kill you." All the head-chopping and VBIEDing on the far side of the globe has only titillated Middle America; they have not frightened Joe Sixpack and Suzy Soccermom. Yet.

I'm talking the same quasi-libertarian isolationist line now that I was in '03, but let 'em set off bombs in Lucas Oil Stadium and I reckon I'll be out there in the street, clamoring to "Burn the nest!" like everybody else.

ETA: Also, thinking back to the mood thirteen years ago, the perpetrators of the attack on Manhattan had one thing in their favor: They were stateless actors. By declaring a "caliphate" and drawing borders and claiming nation-state status, IS has also drawn a handy bullseye around itself in a way AQ never did.

I was going to disagree with your sentiment until you expounded further. I think you make a really good point about America only being stimulated instead of outright scared.

Also, an excellent point about the new Islamic Caliphate.

Combine this with how the Europeans could react to The IC basically being bred and schooled in their countries, and I don't think it's too far off base to see "total war" returning to the lexicon of socially acceptable military actions.

[Jeep]

They have declared death to everyone in the world except for those who convert to their brand of radical Islam.

There is no giving peace a chance with these people.

Plato is often quoted as saying that "Only the dead have seen the end of war." Apparently there is no indication that he ever said it, but the point is true nonetheless. It is also correct that the west has been fighting various forms of radical Islam since shortly after Mohammed's death. As JHC said, this war is going to go on a very long time. What is different this time is that there are large numbers of radicalized (and largely unemployed) Moslems living within Europe. That is going to greatly complicate things going forward.

[GardoneVT]

One thing stands out to me in this video.

Watch the scenes with the group at the mosque praising their "Caliph". Look at all the kids in there, chanting with the adults fondling their AKs.

Meanwhile, our schools suspend kids who wear NRA shirts to class.

I wonder which society will prevail in the fight sure to come. If men like Obama keep being elected by my peers in the Snapchat and Insta-Facebook generation, it will be the shortest global conflict on record. To picture the scale of the horror to come, imagine if Obama were president in 1941.