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Thread: Federal Court upholds Maryland's AWB

  1. #1

    Federal Court upholds Maryland's AWB

    http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/mar...,7712641.story
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/236628112/...urt-gun-ruling

    I don't know if this thread will go anywhere, but I thought I'd see if anyone wants to discuss the ruling. If you read through the opinion you'll see that its absolutely dripping with the judge's personal anti-gun views. Its just filled with BS. Anti-gun groups are cited repeatedly as evidence, and we all know how honest they are. The pdf linked above at scribd.com isn't terribly long if you feel like skimming it. I'll quote some of the interesting/infuriating stuff. I really think this judge would rubber stamp just about any gun control law. Its pretty disgusting how our courts work.

    Starting off with claims made by the state of MD:

    Are "assault weapons" in common use? Hell no! In fact, they're extremely uncommon.
    According to the defendants, by contrast, assault weapons comprise a small portion of the current civilian gun stock in the United States. (See Lawrence Tribe Testimony, ECF No. 44-74, at 24 (estimating that approximately seven million assault weapons are owned in the United States today); see also Marylanders to Prevent Gun Violence Br., ECF No. 40, at 4, 6–7 (estimating that the number of assault weapons in the United States is closer to the number of machine guns than the number of handguns).) Koper estimates that, at the time of the 1994 federal ban, assault weapons comprised less than one percent of the civilian gun stock. (Koper Decl. ¶ 19.) Assuming that recent sales have increased the number of assault weapons in the current civilian market to nine million, such weapons would represent about three percent of the civilian gun stock. (See William J. Krouse, Cong. Research Serv.,Gun Control Legislation, ECF No. 44-28, at 8 (estimating that, by 2009, the total number of firearms available to U.S. civilians was approximately 310 million).) The defendants also assert that the absolute number of assault weapons far exceeds the number of people who own them. In recent decades, gun ownership in the United States has become increasingly concentrated; fewer households own firearms, but those households owning guns own more of them. (See Webster Decl. ¶¶ 13–14; see also NSSF Rep., ECF No. 44-75, at 13 (indicating that the average owner of modern sporting rifles had 2.6 such weapons in 2010 and 3.1 such weapons in 2013).) Using NSSF’s figure that the average assault weapons owner has 3.1 such weapons, this means less than 1% of Americans own an assault weapon. In Maryland specifically, from 1994 to 2012, there were a total of 604,051 transfers of regulated firearms, of which only 46,577 were assault weapons. (See Brady Decl., Ex. C.) Assuming again that the average assault weapons owner has 3.1 such weapons, this means approximately 15,000 Marylanders own 46,577 assault weapons.

    WTF? They cite a Bushmaster advertisement:
    They assert that the banned firearms, which are substantially similar—and indeed, as discussed below, possibly more effective—in functioning, dangerousness, and killing capacity as their fully automatic counterparts, are military-style weapons designed for offensive use... see 2011 Bushmaster Product Catalogue, ECF No. 44-70, at 3 (advertising the Bushmaster ACR (adaptive combat rifle) as “the ultimate military combat weapons system” and “[b]uilt specifically for law enforcement and tactical markets”))
    On to the Court's statements.

    Should strict or intermediate scrutiny apply?
    Applying that framework here, the court finds intermediate scrutiny is appropriate for assessing the constitutionality of Maryland’s ban because it does not seriously impact a person’s ability to defend himself in the home, the Second Amendment’s core protection. It does not ban the quintessential weapon—the handgun—used for self-defense in the home. Nor does it prevent an individual from keeping a suitable weapon for protection in the home. Therefore, although the bans remove a class of weapons that the plaintiffs desire to use for self-defense in the home, there is no evidence demonstrating their removal will significantly impact the core protection of the Second Amendment. Accordingly, intermediate scrutiny applies.
    What does intermediate scrutiny mean?
    To survive intermediate scrutiny, the government must demonstrate that the laws at issue are “reasonably adapted to a substantial government interest.” The Fourth Circuit has made clear that intermediate scrutiny “does not require that a regulation be the least intrusive means of achieving the relevant government objective, or that there be no burden whatsoever on the individual right in question.” Nor does the fit have to be perfect. Instead, Maryland’s interests only must be “substantially served” by the law.
    Will the AWB survive intermediate scrutiny?
    Turning to the record in this case, Maryland’s ban on assault long guns and LCMs survives intermediate scrutiny. The evidence demonstrates that assault weapons have several military-style features making them especially dangerous to law enforcement and civilians.(ATF, Importability of Certain Semiautomatic Rifles, ECF No. 44-14, at 6–7 (describing the military features of semi-automatic assault rifles); 1998 ATF Study at 1 (same).) The AR-15, for example, is essentially the same as the military’s M-16 rifle, with the exception that the AR-15 is semi-automatic instead of fully automatic. (See Johnson Decl. ¶ 36 (“The only difference between automatic firearms actually used by the military, such as the M16, and assault weapons covered by the ban, such as the AR-15, is that the M16 is fully automatic.”))Having the features of military weapons, assault weapons are designed to cause extensive damage and can fire many rounds in quick succession, from a greater distance and with greater accuracy than many other types of guns—including, in some respects, their automatic counterparts.
    Translation: DERP DERP DERP DERP

    It actually continues with several more paragraphs of derp about how unusually dangerous "assault weapons" are. I obviously won't quote all of it, but isn't the following the exact opposite of the truth? But I guess that's what happens when you cite the kittening Brady Campaign (and isn't the FOP pretty anti-gun too?).
    Assault weapons pose a heightened risk to civilians as well. For civilians in their homes, the penetrating capabilities of bullets fired from assault weapons pose a higher risk than that posed by other firearms. They can penetrate walls and other home structures and remain more effective than penetrating bullets fired from other guns, endangering those in neighboring rooms, apartments, or even other homes.(Brady Ctr. to Prevent Gun Violence, Assault Weapons “Mass Produced Mayhem”
    , ECF No. 44-58, at 16 (citing a statement by Jim Pasco, executive director of the Fraternal Order of Police, that he would not be surprised if a bullet fired from an AK-47 went through six walls of conventional drywall in a home)
    The Court's conclusion:
    In summary, the Firearm Safety Act of 2013, which represents the considered judgment of this State’s legislature and its governor, seeks to address a serious risk of harm to law enforcement officers and the public from the greater power to injure and kill presented by assault weapons and large capacity magazines. The Act substantially serves the government’s interest in protecting public safety, and it does so without significantly burdening what the Supreme Court has now explained is the core Second Amendment right of “law-abiding, responsible citizens to use arms in defense of hearth and home.” Accordingly, the law is constitutional and will be upheld.

  2. #2
    Member LHS's Avatar
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    I really want to see a higher court pimp-slap this moron's ruling into the ground.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
    http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/mar...,7712641.story
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/236628112/...urt-gun-ruling

    I don't know if this thread will go anywhere, but I thought I'd see if anyone wants to discuss the ruling. If you read through the opinion you'll see that its absolutely dripping with the judge's personal anti-gun views. Its just filled with BS. Anti-gun groups are cited repeatedly as evidence, and we all know how honest they are. The pdf linked above at scribd.com isn't terribly long if you feel like skimming it. I'll quote some of the interesting/infuriating stuff. I really think this judge would rubber stamp just about any gun control law. Its pretty disgusting how our courts work.

    Starting off with claims made by the state of MD:

    Are "assault weapons" in common use? Hell no! In fact, they're extremely uncommon.



    WTF? They cite a Bushmaster advertisement:


    On to the Court's statements.

    Should strict or intermediate scrutiny apply?


    What does intermediate scrutiny mean?


    Will the AWB survive intermediate scrutiny?

    Translation: DERP DERP DERP DERP

    It actually continues with several more paragraphs of derp about how unusually dangerous "assault weapons" are. I obviously won't quote all of it, but isn't the following the exact opposite of the truth? But I guess that's what happens when you cite the kittening Brady Campaign (and isn't the FOP pretty anti-gun too?).


    The Court's conclusion:

  3. #3
    The R in F.A.R.T RevolverRob's Avatar
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    First thing that strikes me is the citation of Bushmaster's advertising lingo. Traditionally, we have clung to the idea that what LEOs use is acceptable for civilian use. Here we see where that might have backfired. Obviously - The judge and evidence used is extremely biased - But it's worth thinking about the idea of clinging to .MIL or LEO weapons, lingo, and slogans. Gives some credence to those who are pushing to exchange AR15 for MSR (Modern Sporting Rifle)....

    Just food for thought, I will read through the whole thing in the next couple of days. Presumably this will be appealed to a higher court.

    One final thought - RE: the citation of anti-gun guys and their "honesty". I know we think of ourselves as the good guys in this fight, but the bottom line is, there exists virtually NO unbiased report on gun violence. Pro-gun and Anti-gun groups fund these studies, nobody impartial funds these studies. I have personally looked for funding for these kinds of studies, in the interest of attempting to do an impartial study, particularly interested in the way gun crimes are reported from state-to-state, gun crime stats, self-defense stats, etc. I have yet to find a source that would fund the study if they could not first evaluate and have input on the written results prior to publication...That doesn't lend itself to unbiased work...

    -Rob

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by RevolverRob View Post
    One final thought - RE: the citation of anti-gun guys and their "honesty". I know we think of ourselves as the good guys in this fight, but the bottom line is, there exists virtually NO unbiased report on gun violence. Pro-gun and Anti-gun groups fund these studies, nobody impartial funds these studies. I have personally looked for funding for these kinds of studies, in the interest of attempting to do an impartial study, particularly interested in the way gun crimes are reported from state-to-state, gun crime stats, self-defense stats, etc. I have yet to find a source that would fund the study if they could not first evaluate and have input on the written results prior to publication...That doesn't lend itself to unbiased work...
    I agree. I keep a few servings of salt on hand for when I come across statistics from just about anyone. But some claims go beyond biased and are just flat out ridiculous. Like this judge citing the Brady Bunch claiming that assault weapons are especially dangerous due to penetration through walls. I could take the judge to my backyard with some drywall, an AR and a 9mm pistol and show her how full of crap she is. Biased studies are bad, but just pulling complete falsehoods out of your butt is worse.

    As far as studies on gun violence, I wonder if the fundamental data is reliable enough for a sound study. I've read a number of comments here on P-F from LEOs about the problems with how incidents are reported at the ground floor. For example police departments denying they have a gang problem despite the fact that that they obviously do. And not reporting homicides as such as it looks bad for them. If the data is inaccurate from the start, how good can the study be regardless of how well-intentioned the researcher?

    Anyway, I think this ruling is a good read. So many people, particularly those behind enemy lines whose only hope is the judicial system, can be unduly optimistic when it comes to legal challenges of gun control laws. What seems like common sense to us can easily be brushed aside by someone else with a different agenda. This is a perfect illustration of that.
    Last edited by Stephen; 08-12-2014 at 06:17 PM.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevolverRob View Post
    One final thought - RE: the citation of anti-gun guys and their "honesty". I know we think of ourselves as the good guys in this fight, but the bottom line is, there exists virtually NO unbiased report on gun violence. Pro-gun and Anti-gun groups fund these studies, nobody impartial funds these studies. I have personally looked for funding for these kinds of studies, in the interest of attempting to do an impartial study, particularly interested in the way gun crimes are reported from state-to-state, gun crime stats, self-defense stats, etc. I have yet to find a source that would fund the study if they could not first evaluate and have input on the written results prior to publication...That doesn't lend itself to unbiased work...
    What studies are funded by pro-gun groups? There are CRS and DoJ studies examining the effects of guns/gun control on crime as well as similar studies by many criminologists and economists. I'm aware of over 20 such studies.

  6. #6
    Member TGS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevolverRob View Post
    First thing that strikes me is the citation of Bushmaster's advertising lingo. Traditionally, we have clung to the idea that what LEOs use is acceptable for civilian use. Here we see where that might have backfired. Obviously - The judge and evidence used is extremely biased - But it's worth thinking about the idea of clinging to .MIL or LEO weapons, lingo, and slogans. Gives some credence to those who are pushing to exchange AR15 for MSR (Modern Sporting Rifle)....

    Just food for thought, I will read through the whole thing in the next couple of days. Presumably this will be appealed to a higher court.

    One final thought - RE: the citation of anti-gun guys and their "honesty". I know we think of ourselves as the good guys in this fight, but the bottom line is, there exists virtually NO unbiased report on gun violence. Pro-gun and Anti-gun groups fund these studies, nobody impartial funds these studies. I have personally looked for funding for these kinds of studies, in the interest of attempting to do an impartial study, particularly interested in the way gun crimes are reported from state-to-state, gun crime stats, self-defense stats, etc. I have yet to find a source that would fund the study if they could not first evaluate and have input on the written results prior to publication...That doesn't lend itself to unbiased work...

    -Rob
    Nothing is ever completely free of any chance of bias. You'll be searching for a loooong time in any area of study if you have that requirement.

    There are credible studies, however.

    Even credible studies used by the opposition. Thing is, they cherry pick info from them. The study is credible....the way they integrate the study into a campaign is not.

    Kopel's reports are a pretty good example of this. The conclusions of his reports don't support the anti agenda whatsoever, even though his reports are the most cited by Moms Demand Action, Brady, SPLC, VPC, ect. The Truth About Assault Weapons does a great job at citing these same reports and how they actually don't support the anti agenda.

    So, yeah, I totally disagree with you in that there are credible studies. The Harvard one and various DoJ studies are other big ones to note.
    "Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by RevolverRob View Post

    One final thought - RE: the citation of anti-gun guys and their "honesty". I know we think of ourselves as the good guys in this fight....
    -Rob
    The Constitution of the United States agrees with us, and disagrees with the anti's. That makes us the good guys, and them the bad.
    The Minority Marksman.
    "When you meet a swordsman, draw your sword: Do not recite poetry to one who is not a poet."
    -a Ch'an Buddhist axiom.

  8. #8
    The R in F.A.R.T RevolverRob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joshs View Post
    What studies are funded by pro-gun groups? There are CRS and DoJ studies examining the effects of guns/gun control on crime as well as similar studies by many criminologists and economists. I'm aware of over 20 such studies.
    I will have to find my notes to give you specifics. Unfortunately, they are currently packed in the boxes of my office awaiting my moving truck.

    FWIW, I have never considered CRS or DoJ studies to be unbiased, they often appear to be influenced by the administration in power when the work was begun. Personal anecdote, after watching my wife work as an internal auditor for the state government, I have learned that results of government studies/audits when published for the public are basically watered down BS. My wife quit her job because of the white-wash policy of the department heads that would heavily edit their reports before releasing them as both a CYA-policy and to gain political favor. I know we're all shocked...

    I don't recall reading studies by any economists, if you have a list of them, would you mind sending it to me via PM or email? I'd be very interested to read them.

    -Rob

  9. #9
    The R in F.A.R.T RevolverRob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TGS View Post
    Nothing is ever completely free of any chance of bias. You'll be searching for a loooong time in any area of study if you have that requirement.

    There are credible studies, however.

    Even credible studies used by the opposition. Thing is, they cherry pick info from them. The study is credible....the way they integrate the study into a campaign is not.

    Kopel's reports are a pretty good example of this. The conclusions of his reports don't support the anti agenda whatsoever, even though his reports are the most cited by Moms Demand Action, Brady, SPLC, VPC, ect. The Truth About Assault Weapons does a great job at citing these same reports and how they actually don't support the anti agenda.

    So, yeah, I totally disagree with you in that there are credible studies. The Harvard one and various DoJ studies are other big ones to note.
    Absolutely agree that credible studies exist, but none that are unbiased. Kopel's reports are a great example, a self-identified gun right's activist is going to find evidence that gun control works? Confirmation bias remains a problem.

    I am not suggesting that I think an "unbiased" study (I am not an unbiased researcher, so I won't pretend to be one) would bear out a different result from the expected. And certainly in this specific case, the factual evidence cited by the judge is just completely bonkers and should have been dealt with, with expert testimony.

    Quote Originally Posted by GardoneVT View Post
    The Constitution of the United States agrees with us, and disagrees with the anti's. That makes us the good guys, and them the bad.
    Because that's what I meant by that statement. I meant it to be a critical evaluation....



    Edit: This thread prompted me to go looking and I had not seen this DoJ statistical study that came out in May of last year - https://info.publicintelligence.net/...e1993-2011.pdf - This is an excellent study and I'll have to amend my statements, because it appears to be largely unbiased (except for the biases inherent in the data used for the analyses). I'll go find some crow to eat.
    Last edited by RevolverRob; 08-12-2014 at 07:00 PM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevolverRob View Post
    Absolutely agree that credible studies exist, but none that are unbiased. Kopel's reports are a great example, a self-identified gun right's activist is going to find evidence that gun control works? Confirmation bias remains a problem.

    I am not suggesting that I think an "unbiased" study (I am not an unbiased researcher, so I won't pretend to be one) would bear out a different result from the expected. And certainly in this specific case, the factual evidence cited by the judge is just completely bonkers and should have been dealt with, with expert testimony.

    I think TGS meant Koper and not Kopel. There was expert testimony given to refute the state's evidence, but it was not given much weight by the judge. Most notably by some guy named Gary Roberts. Also, the only large survey of people who actually own AWs, which showed that the second most popular reason for owning an "MSR" was home defense, but, rather than rely on a self-report survey of people who actually own AWs, the court cites Tribe for the proposition that people don't really own or need to have AWs for self-defense.

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