Tactics Against Active Shooters

[Stengun]

Howdy,

I started reading the article but, I guess I got lost in all the Mall Ninja training skills.

The cops didn't use proper "SA" while eating at CiCis?

Same with the cops that were killed in Lakewood?

I know not everyone has Super Top Secert Mall Ninja skills and training but they were uniformed cops at were eating lunch while on duty.

In the last 30 years there have been MILLIONS of times that uniformed cops have done this WITHOUT being ambushed by a couple of right-wing kooks who "thought" they were starting a "Revolution" and all the other kooks were going to join them.

During this same time period only a handful of times have cops been ambushed while eating lunch. They normally feel pretty safe 99% of the time especially while eating lunch in uniform with another cop.

I guess with the LV cops one could have stood guard w/ a M-4 at high port arms while the other one ate then switched positions.

The Lakewood cop shootings: IIRC they were eating breakfast and going over paperwork before their shift when they were ambushed.

Ambushed........... Funny thing about ambushes is that if you set them up properly there isn't much you can do to avoid the trap and as soon as you realize that it's an ambush, well, it's too late.

In the case of the LV cops the nutjobs probably already knew they were going to be there and the shooter walked up to them while they were eating and shot the first cop in the back of his head and then shot the 2nd cop in the neck.

From the time he stepped through the door until the last shot was fired probably took less than 5 seconds, with the encounter with the cops lasting 2 seconds.

The shooter was committed and determined and was pretty much unstoppable. That's why they are successful most of the time.

Pretty simple.

In the case of Wilcox, he failed to follow Rule #1. CYA.

Just my $.02 and your mileage may vary.

Paul

[JHC]

Howdy,

I started reading the article but, I guess I got lost in all the Mall Ninja training skills.

The cops didn't use proper "SA" while eating at CiCis?

Same with the cops that were killed in Lakewood?

I know not everyone has Super Top Secert Mall Ninja skills and training but they were uniformed cops at were eating lunch while on duty.

In the last 30 years there have been MILLIONS of times that uniformed cops have done this WITHOUT being ambushed by a couple of right-wing kooks who "thought" they were starting a "Revolution" and all the other kooks were going to join them.

During this same time period only a handful of times have cops been ambushed while eating lunch. They normally feel pretty safe 99% of the time especially while eating lunch in uniform with another cop.

I guess with the LV cops one could have stood guard w/ a M-4 at high port arms while the other one ate then switched positions.

The Lakewood cop shootings: IIRC they were eating breakfast and going over paperwork before their shift when they were ambushed.

Ambushed........... Funny thing about ambushes is that if you set them up properly there isn't much you can do to avoid the trap and as soon as you realize that it's an ambush, well, it's too late.

In the case of the LV cops the nutjobs probably already knew they were going to be there and the shooter walked up to them while they were eating and shot the first cop in the back of his head and then shot the 2nd cop in the neck.

From the time he stepped through the door until the last shot was fired probably took less than 5 seconds, with the encounter with the cops lasting 2 seconds.

The shooter was committed and determined and was pretty much unstoppable. That's why they are successful most of the time.

Pretty simple.

In the case of Wilcox, he failed to follow Rule #1. CYA.

Just my $.02 and your mileage may vary.

Paul

There are also millions of miles driven where a seat belt wasn't needed. Moot point.

Mall ninja? M4? Many many people never sit in a public place in a position to be easily blind sided. That custom is old and not mall ninja. Another funny thing about ambushes is if you don't enter a kill zone, the ambush is stuffed.

[JHC]

Great article and read!

Funny thing is that yesterday I took my 10 year old son to a fast food burger joint. He said "dad, I think we need to take out." I asked "Why?" He replied "because there are no good seats." Despite having empty tables, none would have been an acceptable choice for me and he already knew it. As noted, while only a piece of the puzzle, an important one. Imparting that upon others, especially those we love is not difficult and may one day save their life.

Boom

[Mr_White]

Howdy,

I started reading the article but, I guess I got lost in all the Mall Ninja training skills.

The cops didn't use proper "SA" while eating at CiCis?

Same with the cops that were killed in Lakewood?

I know not everyone has Super Top Secert Mall Ninja skills and training but they were uniformed cops at were eating lunch while on duty.

In the last 30 years there have been MILLIONS of times that uniformed cops have done this WITHOUT being ambushed by a couple of right-wing kooks who "thought" they were starting a "Revolution" and all the other kooks were going to join them.

During this same time period only a handful of times have cops been ambushed while eating lunch. They normally feel pretty safe 99% of the time especially while eating lunch in uniform with another cop.

I guess with the LV cops one could have stood guard w/ a M-4 at high port arms while the other one ate then switched positions.

The Lakewood cop shootings: IIRC they were eating breakfast and going over paperwork before their shift when they were ambushed.

Ambushed........... Funny thing about ambushes is that if you set them up properly there isn't much you can do to avoid the trap and as soon as you realize that it's an ambush, well, it's too late.

In the case of the LV cops the nutjobs probably already knew they were going to be there and the shooter walked up to them while they were eating and shot the first cop in the back of his head and then shot the 2nd cop in the neck.

From the time he stepped through the door until the last shot was fired probably took less than 5 seconds, with the encounter with the cops lasting 2 seconds.

The shooter was committed and determined and was pretty much unstoppable. That's why they are successful most of the time.

Pretty simple.

In the case of Wilcox, he failed to follow Rule #1. CYA.

Just my $.02 and your mileage may vary.

Paul

It's a little hard to take your post very seriously when you refer to Claude Werner's material and ideas as 'Mall Ninja skills.' I don't agree.

As I understand it, there were some serious issues in the Lakewood event with regard to positioning and task fixation in public. That's not intended to be an insult or slight to those officers. It would be great if other good people could learn from what happened to them instead of just saying that nothing could have been done and failing to learn what could be learned.

[Shellback]

Since it's being discussed... Here are photos of the Cici's in question.

Main entrance is on the right.



Panning to the left. Reference Coke machine.



Panning further left. Reference Coke machine.



After reading quite a few news reports my guess is that the officers were seated here, down below. I believe the first officer was shot in the back of the head while refilling his soda. Then the shooter turned and engaged the 2nd officer who was seated where these guys are. This is just a guess going by news reports that I've read.

Note: Almost all customer traffic will flow by these seats due to buffet layout and drink dispenser. Also, restrooms are located directly behind this table and can be accessed from the left as well.

[Mr_White]

Head shots in training: Yes, definitely, from about two arms’ lengths to 25 yards – I’d say we work them the most from 3 to 15 yards though. The default shooting response we teach is for a limited number of rounds to the high thoracic cavity, then immediately transition to the head (really, attempting the CNS) if the threat has not stopped by that point. Haven’t seen reluctance on the part of the students here, but by the time we’ve moved beyond the basic pistol class, they tend to be a little higher order of dedication and we start drilling failures to stop pretty hard, on some occasions with photorealistic targets or in scenario/FOF training.

Other devices we use to practice engaging the head are tennis balls and bowling pins hung from the target rail. The ‘bulb’ part of a bowling pin is slightly smaller than a head (not CNS, we are talking about the whole head in this case.) Tennis ball is like a tight CNS target. They can be swung around so they are moving. They can be shot on the move at the same time. When you shoot them, they move some more, and somewhat unpredictably. When you have more than one shooter engaging the same target, other people’s shots move your target even more unexpectedly.

Also might engage the head initially if:

The head is all that’s available

We have a reason to think there is body armor involved (or an explosive device on the body, I suppose, but that’s pretty far afield for us)

We can articulate a lack of availability of the time body shots can require to be effective

Getting lower and using the rising trajectory produced by aiming for the head mitigates danger to bystanders

The threat is so egregious that even with foreground or background issues, we are still choosing to engage and the angle can’t be mitigated or there isn’t time to do so, then the round count might wisely be limited even further than usual by going straight to the head with fewer, more accurate shots. This seems like one that might have applied to the simulation John Hearne went through that was just being discussed in another thread.

I snipped out all the other justifications you would use for head shots, but my comment applies to all....
There is no need to justify headshots. If a threat is deserving the application of lawful deadly force, where that force is applied is irelevant.

First, I‘d like to apologize for phasing so poorly the part of my post you quoted. The way I wrote that very much makes it sound like I was talking explicitly about justification, but that’s not what I was attempting to say. I should have written ‘any time we recognize a lack of availability of the time body shots can require to be effective.’

That whole list of ‘might engage the head initially if’ is really about practical reasons to choose that course of action, in lieu of the common custom and practice of engaging COM/high thoracic cavity with initial shots. It’s also not comprehensive list.

I get what you are saying, deadly force is deadly force, and it doesn’t matter whether it’s via a gun, knife, club, repeated punches that rise to the level of deadly force, a strangulation technique, or whatever else. Yes, the black letter law doesn’t make a distinction there and there isn’t any justification required to use one mechanism of deadly force instead of another.

However, I don’t think that is going to stop questions from being asked regarding why one mechanism or method was chosen over another, particularly when the common custom and practice in LE and civilian pistol training is to shoot to stop the threat by targeting (in a full frontal shot) the high thoracic cavity.

My personal opinion is that given the medical and ballistic science available – pistol shots to the high thoracic cavity can potentially take a minimum of five seconds to achieve incapacitation, and thus cessation of deadly threat – if the overall range of pistol users across military, LE, and civilians had the technical ability to consistently hit the CNS (the zone we are really talking about), I think doing so would be the common custom and practice.

There are an awful lot of situations where the human performance science is going to describe that there may not be five or more seconds available to wait for the threat to stop. If a person were able to make a CNS shot under those circumstances, that lack of time availability might be a great practical reason to target the CNS initially, instead of the easier-to-hit but slower-to-take-effect high thoracic cavity. And that reasoning would be articulable later, if there came to be a need or desire to articulate it.

I hope that makes a little more sense, and I’m certainly interested in people’s opinions on that, whether they agree or disagree with me.

[1slow]

Jim Higginbotham made much the same point at the Tactical Conference.

[Dagga Boy]

One of the parts of being a cop I hated was eating in public. I tended to always eat at the same places....same waitresses, big tips, and knew who was cooking. The other issue was vulnerability. It sucked because everyone knew who you were and the reverse was not true. You had very little control. It made eating a sort of chore....especially trying to keep your gun hand free as much as possible. It is one of the biggest reasons I am baffled at why the OC folks so badly want everyone to see them armed. Most typical urban folks will "wish away" the O/C'ers as LEO's. Nut jobs may find a target. I always want to try to blend in and remain a simple fly on the wall......it is your best "cover". Essentially, concealment through not being a standout. I have had this pay off in spades in several incidents that turned into non-incidents because of the ability to "get in front" of the problem as it was developing and not having to react.

Another reality brought up in regards to head shots, but applies across the board is level of training and what you are doing and what is wired up. Most folks are not well trained in functioning under high levels of stress and maintaining situational awareness and issuing commands and maintaining control.........this is not part of most folks training and experience....heck, many LEO's are horribly under-equipped for this. People need to spend some time pre-thinking their limitations before engaging in a incident.

[LtDave]

I also hated eating in public while in uniform. Most of the time, I would pick up something and eat at the station. Less heartburn eating out in plain clothes. My department required that plain clothes personnel had to keep their weapons concealed when in restaurants. Kind of funny when LAPD and LASD guys would go to the same restaurants with exposed guns and badges.

[SeriousStudent]

Thank you for the photos, Irish. They helped with my understanding of Mr. Werner's article and the crime scene.

Again, prayers sent for the murdered officers, the good Samaritan who tried to help, and their families.

Mr. Werner, excellent article as always.