FBI to adopt 9 mm pistols

[John Hearne]

I will probably deeply regret this but:

"If I remember right it was a .38 special to the neck which ended the scumbag Platt."

Platt's official cause of death was caused by the bullet fired by Agent Dove. This is a very famous wound track as the bullet stopped just short of Platt's heart after driving through his arm (severing the brachial artery) and entering the lung. Platt was later shot in the clavical area and the round came to rest against his spine and probably bruised it. This wound likely paralyzed him which gave the chest wound time to work.

The round that really bothers me was the one fired by Agent Risner from over 30 yards away. This round came in from the side and first contacted the tricep before striking the back and stopping against the ribs without penetrating into the chest wall. Nobody focuses on this round and it is the one that I find most disturbing. It is likely the result of a lightweight (115 gr) hollowpoint fired from a distance sufficient enough to bleed off too much velocity. The bullet lacked the momentum to penetrate the chest wall. Again, this wound was received before Platt killed anyone.

Momentum? Really?

Yeah. Momentum tends to predict penetration - it simply the likelihood that an object in motion will stay on its path when it encounters resistance. In other words, if you line the shot up well, the round with the most momentum will have a greater tendency to stay on that path.

Another measure that tends to correspond well with penetration is cross-sectional density. This is why the 147 grain is so popular when deeper penetration is desired.

I'm not saying that more momentum makes up for poor shot placement. I am saying that more momentum rewards good shot placement.

I'll also offer that if an agency transitions from 40 to 9mm and takes the 20% ammo savings and shoots 20% more, then I am all for that. How many will?

[BJJ]

John Hearne, thanks for your insight.

[Kyle Reese]

This is a good move by the Bureau, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with a modern 9x19 service pistol coupled with some of the outstanding duty offerings from ATK, Speer and Winchester.

[Tamara]

I can't deny that every time I hear this, there's a little voice in the back of my head that says "Here's a Sharpie and a Binkie doll. Use the Sharpie to make a dot on the Binkie doll in the place where the bad guy will shrug off the 124gr +P HST, but the 230gr GDHP will make him DRT..."

I know it's goofy and unscientific, but I can't deny I hear it.

[DocGKR]

Today an icon in the field of wound ballistics and the recently retired supervisor of the FBI BRF, SSA Buford Boone, wrote the following regarding this subject:

"The FBI has put out a PRE-SOLICITATION NOTICE of a proposed requirement for various commercial "OFF THE SHELF" semi-automatic pistols chambered to fire a 9mm Luger cartridge as defined by SAAMI.

WHY would they do that? Perhaps it is because they are moving to the 9mm Luger platform.

In anticipation of someone whining "What would Buford say about this?", I'd like to make it publicly known that it has my FULL SUPPORT. Yes, I think it is the right thing to do.

Without getting into the weeds, a full power .40 is a great cartridge. Unfortunately, most shooters and many pistols can't actually handle a full power .40. Put a problematic pistol in the hands of a problematic shooter and you've got guaranteed catastrophe.

The .40 can be downloaded so that it is easier to shoot. This has been done more than once. As data showed, the downloaded .40 was no better (in some cases worse) than some 9mm Luger loadings. Remember, these ain't your Grandaddy's 9s.

Don't believe it? To quote John Adams: "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."

There is no good reason to issue a cartridge that, in the same size pistol, gives equal terminal performance but less bullets.

Then there is the overwhelming amount of problems of .40 caliber systems. They've been hashed out here and elsewhere.

This switch simply makes sense.

No, I'm not a .40 hater. I carry one almost every day, loaded with full power ammo. I'd happily switch to a 9 and drive on.

So far as the more powerful cartridges go, my personal opinion is that nobody should even be allowed to carry them unless they are able to consistently max out the qualification course. I'd far rather go to work with a 98-100% Agent carrying a 9 than an 80% Agent carrying a .40 or .45. I once (OK, more than once) told people that carried the cool guns: "You know, carrying that but not consistently shooting 98-100 is kind of like driving your Daddy's Corvette but stalling at the traffic light cause you really don't know how to work a clutch".

A good shooter can shoot anything. Unfortunately, the ranks of LE are not necessarily filled with "good" shooters."

[TAZ]

The round that really bothers me was the one fired by Agent Risner from over 30 yards away. This round came in from the side and first contacted the tricep before striking the back and stopping against the ribs without penetrating into the chest wall. Nobody focuses on this round and it is the one that I find most disturbing. It is likely the result of a lightweight (115 gr) hollowpoint fired from a distance sufficient enough to bleed off too much velocity. The bullet lacked the momentum to penetrate the chest wall. Again, this wound was received before Platt killed anyone.

Not quite sure I am tracking this really bad 9mm bullet. The round came from Platt's side and struck the tricep. Went through the tricep and entered his back and stopped along the rib. I'm having a hard time envisioning how a bullet traveling a path pretty parallel to the target is going to turn and enter the chest cavity. The tricep is pretty far off the the center line. If the round re-entered his back it probably just paralleled the rib.


Agree with the question though of what will happen to the savings. Will they be invested into better training and continued education or made to look good on a P&L. No caliber or bullet design is going to make up for not getting rounds into vital areas of the threat.

[John Hearne]

I'm having a hard time envisioning how a bullet traveling a path pretty parallel to the target is going to turn and enter the chest cavity. The tricep is pretty far off the the center line.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. This bullet did not travel parallel. According to French Anderson in "Forensic Anlysis of the April 11, 1986, FBI Firefight" the bullet was traveling perpendicular to Platt's side. The bullet passed through the tricep without contacting any bone, and basically entered in the arm pit. When it encountered bone, it was unable to overcome that obstacle.

I suspect but cannot prove that had that bullet been fired from 5 yards away, it would still have had enough momentum to breach the ribs. The problems is physics. The lighter weight bullets are going to shed their velocity faster over distance. This is a double whammy as momentum is mass * velocity. You are starting with a lighter bullet so you've reduced the mass and now you've reduced the velocity at a rate greater than a heavier bullet would lose velocity.

[JHC]

So the FBI does use some 9mms now do they not? Or allow some? If so; what loading have they preferred in 9mm?

[Beat Trash]

JHC, I thought the FBI's duty round in 9mm was the Winchester Bonded 147 gr loading. But I could be wrong on this.

Doc, thanks for giving us the link to the FBI's request for a 9mm pistol. I seem to remember someone mentioning last year during a phone call that the FBI was seriously considering the move back to 9mm...Clairvoyant I guess...

It's interesting that the LE community is moving back to 9mm at the same time the Army is considering leaving 9mm. It will be interesting to see how many other agencies follow the FBI lead in going back to 9mm.

As for me, I'm with a 9mm agency until I retire. Upon my retirement, I'll still be carrying a 9mm. And I never felt the need to forfeit my "Man Card" by carrying a 9.

[MD7305]

It will be interesting to see if the platform changes. Glock, Sig, VP9, FNS?