White Light "Negligent Discharges"

[Jay Cunningham]

This is broken off from another thread...

We've been having some discussions lately sort of challenging (which I'm a big fan of BTW) some standard fare, such as "mandatory" night sights on "serious use" guns, fiber optics that will/won't get you killed in a gunfight (GYKIAGF)... so now let's hit on the dreaded white light negligent discharge.

One set of ground rules: please state if you are current or former military, PMC, LE when giving your opinion. This will help everyone in the discussion know where you're coming from.

[Chuck Haggard]

I think there are a lot of issues to be dealt with on this one. Just as one size gun does not fit all, light fit and switching to the gun are also important.

I prefer to run the toggle type switches on a PML with my trigger finger and use the light on as as needed basis. When I was running a shield a lot in SWAT I had the old yoke type early DG switch on my USPs, those ran fine, and I didn't have indexing issues on the draw due to starting with the gun already in my hand most of the time, and due to the switch design. I am not a fan of the feel of the current DG switch on Glocks, messed with my grip index on the draw.

I never really had any issue with white light ADs when running a PML, but I also dry train the crap out of new equipment when I get it.

[Dagga Boy]

what Chuck said.

[orionz06]

Is there any overlap between different methods of using a light where one from a particular background would consider light usage from another background "negligent"? IE someone using a constant on vs someone who does a flash and pie.

[TheTrevor]

I never really had any issue with white light ADs when running a PML, but I also dry train the crap out of new equipment when I get it.

My completely non-pro opinion from dry-training with my TLR-2 with remote switch (similar to the DG)... There's a direct and unmistakable relationship between the amount of time I spent dry-firing with the light/switch affixed and my ability to keep my middle finger reliably arched over the switch. I had 3-4 WLND's (white-light NDs) in the first three cumulative hours, perhaps 1-2 more in the next 6-7 hours, and none that I can recall after that. I feel like that light-switch protective index starts to degrade if I go more than a few weeks without spending some quality time with the TLR-2.

Besides, accidentally flashing a 600lm white light when you're not expecting it (especially when standing in a dark room and looking directly into the illuminated area) tends to be a self-correcting problem. Memory of that retinal searing gives you good motivation to avoid repeating same.

[Tamara]

I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

However, I'm not as worried about the whole idea on my CCW gun because it's most likely that anybody I have any business shooting (outside of a home defense scenario) already knows exactly where I am anyway.

(The whole "_____ will give away your position!" is something of a pet peeve of mine in that context.)

[orionz06]

(The whole "_____ will give away your position!" is something of a pet peeve of mine in that context.)

Yup. This has been discussed a bit before outside the forum. Much of the light usage instruction comes from the military where the mission, the gear, rules of engagement, numbers, and people involved are all different.

[Lon]

Besides, accidentally flashing a 600lm white light when you're not expecting it (especially when standing in a dark room and looking directly into the illuminated area) tends to be a self-correcting problem. Memory of that retinal searing gives you good motivation to avoid repeating same.

This here's a good topic in and of itself. How many lumens does the average person (non-mil/LE) need? Anything over 200 tends to be overkill, IMHO. I've rarely needed more than 200 at work (LE).

Sorry for thread drift. Back to our regularly scheduled program......

[TheTrevor]

This here's a good topic in and of itself. How many lumens does the average person (non-mil/LE) need? Anything over 200 tends to be overkill, IMHO. I've rarely needed more than 200 at work (LE).

I absolutely love having 600lm of white light on tap when I'm outdoors, especially when you add in the coaxial red laser. Whether it's 200lm or 600lm, my night vision is going to be blown out when the light goes on, and 600lm means I can see like it's daylight. Better, even, with the contrast you get from a high power white LED light source. It's practically cheating, which tells me it's a good thing.

Indoors, if I need light while the gun is at the low ready, I get everything I need from the bounce of floor/walls/etc. The beauty of 600lm is not needing to raise the gun from low ready to get a positive ID when the light comes on. I've thought about getting a red flip-off filter, but that's just one more thing to manipulate when I already keep a 200lm red LED hand-held flashlight handy.

I'm also a believer in "insanely bright light as a force multiplier", and as such, I'm 100% convinced that anyone within 30-40 feet looking at the bright end of that light is going to be less effective in bringing the fight to me at home or when we're out camping somewhere. I've tried some backyard exercises with one of my kids holding the light and tracking me with the laser, and not only was I half-blinded I had a headache afterwards.

My circumstances and requirements are not necessarily the same as others, I'm not LE or mil, etc etc.

[Jay Cunningham]

I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

However, I'm not as worried about the whole idea on my CCW gun because it's most likely that anybody I have any business shooting (outside of a home defense scenario) already knows exactly where I am anyway.

(The whole "_____ will give away your position!" is something of a pet peeve of mine in that context.)

This is the crux of what I was getting at.