Sounds like training is in order.
If your patrol guys can't competently search in the dark then you guys have a serious training issue.
Sounds like training is in order.
If your patrol guys can't competently search in the dark then you guys have a serious training issue.
Jay,Originally Posted by Jay Cunningham
The context of my white light ND comment from the other thread is based on running a DG switch on a WML as a graveyard patrol cop, FWIW. And within that context there are definitively times when I may have a pistol in hand and don't want a white light signature illuminating my location.
Despite tons of mileage and vetting them over the course of years, I continue to go back and forth on the DG. On one hand they can be a great tool and there's no questioning their effectiveness during the "powered up" phase or while actually shooting but I've grown to prefer having a bit more resolute control of my white light and I'm currently just using the stock Surefire toggles.
FWIW, I have clickies on my long guns also and believe they're a better solution than pressure pads (for lights anyway) for a lot of the same reasons.
Just my 2 pesos.
t
"I learned more about being a LEO by being a bad guy than I ever did from an instructor." I would drive my student officers nuts with this saying. I was trained in and used for years the flash on and off when needed using the support hand thumb police flashlight technique. I used this until I spent literally dozens of hours a year as a bad guy in various abandoned buildings around the city.
What I found out was that it just didn't matter. Leave the light on? I could tell if I knew your face when I shot you with UTM/Simunitions. Leave the light off and I would shoot the gloomy looking shape who said, Police just a few seconds before at the door. Use the light intermittently and I will shoot you too. The light suddenly coming on didn't blind me even when they got lucky and pointed it at me before I shot them. The dark didn't stop me from locating them even on the darkest night. I never had a problem shooting the cop, from rookie to tenured SWAT officer. Action beat reaction over and over again.
I can't prove but I suspect that any ND using the trigger finger to turn the light on was due to having your trigger finger on the trigger. Of course officers are usually trained not to do that. It always seemed to be a completely different muscle motion to activate the light or the trigger. So it might be a training issue? Or it might be that some people believe that if it is just as easy to use another way to activate it, then why not just do that and avoid any possible problems? I think it depends on who you are and your situation (holding kids comes to mind.)
What you do right before you know you're going to be in a use of force incident, often determines the outcome of that use of force.
I generally train every time I search for what I need them to do. Their tactics aren't necessarily bad if they are searching with another Officer. A lot of times it might be the first time they've searched with a K9. Nyeti talked on another thread about using a 10%er. If they are there I grab them.
If they are searching with a K9 handler who is out in front of them they need to have light discipline. Reference LLs question (I was tired this morning) AFAIK I've never been muzzled. That's not to say I haven't been. I work a late swings early graves shift. The later it us in the shift the higher the ID number generally. The enthusiasm is there but the street experience might not be there. We are seeing a lot of brand new guys on graves. A lot of times they haven't searched with a dog. Sometimes it's a lick on me for not briefing them before starting the search.
We've started going out to the Academy field problems for one night and every recruit goes through a mock area search where we discuss light discipline, where to be during the search, and where not to be when the suspect is located ie don't stand next to the dog who really wants to bite something and doesn't care what it is. If we have time we also do a building search with them.
We are hoping to increase proficiency in searching and reduce unintended bites by starting at the Academy.
Just a dog chauffeur that used to hold the dumb end of the leash.
I have been in multiple training environments where a "white light ND" was considered akin to an actual ND. I have witnessed students get screamed at and chewed-out for white light NDs.
My question (relating back to what Tamara had alluded to) is: when is a white light ND an issue? Is it always an issue? How important/unimportant is it?
I'll note that in the above example, the instructor was always from an SF background, and the students were a mix of LEO, active .mil, and normal human civilian.
I think there's a scale. Your average joe interested in personal defense and home defense is probably at hardly any risk whatsoever to his person or mission from unintentionally activating a white light.
Your average patrol officer in most circumstances probably has a slightly higher risk. Your typical SWAT guy higher than that, and even then probably more risk to the mission (trying to locate and arrest a bad guy) than of triggering a gunfight. I say the risk is fairly minimal here because in my experience police officers who intelligently use white light are pretty few and far between. Most I've seen treat the light like a woobie and yet they don't seem to get killed regularly as a result. It certainly could conceivably go bad, it just doesn't seem to very often. I'll defer to others with more experience, but that's my read.
Your average dude who flies into another country full of hostiles in a stealthy helicopter to sneak up on the world's most wanted terrorist...it's probably a bad day for him and everybody around him if he sets off that WML inappropriately.
Light discipline is something the average joe should know exists, but he has lots of other more important stuff to worry about and be trained on.
I'm also reminded of Todd's experience clearing a house with SuperDave here...
3/15/2016
I am gonna agree here. Even being on the bad guy side of an AMIS scenario where a user was horrible with the light, I knew the route, and I had extreme confidence in my technique/skill over the opponent a light ND wasn't what I had hoped it to be. Replace someone who has been training 9 hours during the day and wants to blast someone with a fury of airsoft pellets with a lesser skilled bad guy with out any considerable skill, technique, or know how and less knowledge and practice on the route you are gonna have a hard time telling me I will be at extreme risk. Doesn't mean I will just leave the light on.
If the lights attract fire and one has an ND why can't we just move? If we can't why are we in a position where we can't? I think it boils down to if the light goes off, accelerate the plan slightly to account for it.
Top 3 "industry" stories ever. Especially having heard it from all 3 parties involved.
Think for yourself. Question authority.
Unintentional activation of Todd's laser actually proved useful to me during AMIS. I saw his laser go off and I got out of the way, and that led to about 5 minutes of he and I trying to shoot one another without success in the pitch blackness. Says something about how difficult things get when the targets are real people and it's dark when a guy with Todd's skill can miss a dude my size at a few yards.
...but that was a Culpepper rape dungeon worst case scenario. Rarely will the average joe be trying to work his way through a series of rooms littered with animal feces and 1980's Beta-Max porn tapes in an effort to find and neutralize 1/2 a dozen armed opponents intent on a gunfight.
I probably have more skill in the use of a white light than most (which is a damnably low standard, certainly) and I could likely go the rest of my life without ever learning anything else and be just fine. I still want to get a better handle on using the white light because I'm an obsessive nerd like that.
If I were rolling out on patrol tomorrow, I wouldn't consider it a want...I would view it as a need.
3/15/2016
Well put, and I agree.
So why do we hear average Joe talking about white light NDs like he's going to give away his team's position between now and the next waadi?
Did he watch too much YouTube!?
Did an instructor with a lot of experience give him good advice but he failed to comprehend it?
Did an instructor with a lot of experience but not much perspective tell him that was The Way?
The world may never know.
For a normal gal/guy checking their house for a bump in the night, preventing unintentional activation of their WML ranks about equal to not slamming doors and moving without sounding like they have cement blocks for shoes.
There are times to be invisible and times to project overt presence.
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