12GA anti-material rifle?

[DocGKR]

http://www.brennekeusa.com/cms/h_brenneke_facts.html

The original Brenneke KO (SL-122KO) uses a 1 oz slug--I purchased a case of this a couple of months ago: http://www.brennekeusa.com/cms/ko.html

The very nice Brenneke Tactical Home Defense uses a 1 oz slug: http://www.brennekeusa.com/cms/l_tac...e_defense.html (my favorite current Brenneke load)

Likewise the old unparalleled Rottweil Brenneke MP load used a 1 oz slug (I still have a case left--it is my go to load for serious work).

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.p...or-LE-duty-use

Federal Truball Deep Penetrator (PB127 DPRS) is my favorite slug if I cannot get a good Brenneke load.

[Unobtanium]

Most of the slugs I see tested are Winchesters and HP slugs, at that. I have shot the Remington Slugger 1oz@1560fps slugs a good bit at harder things, and found that they compress and expand radially much less than Winchester slugs, and do not "hollow out" like the Winchester HP slugs. While they are not as hard as the Brenneke's or Federal DP, I think that they would offer a very happy "medium".

Has any testing been done to this effect?

Here is the only gel test I can find of this slug:


11" of gel + a "polypack" that stopped it, whatever that is. The slug looks like most of its kind I have shot into berms, milk-jugs, etc.

I didn’t have enough material to fashion another 5”x5”X13.5” block, but I was able to stack enough odds and ends together to form a makeshift test block that was 11 inches in length. The Slugger penetrated the block completely and was stopped by the first poly pack. The maximum width of the cavity was 5 ¾ inches and did not reach the edges of the block.
The recovered Slugger. The recovered projectile retained all of it mass and expanded to a diameter of .9 inches.

Once you push them faster, say, in the 3" variety, they start to come apart.

Next time I get a chance, I would like to put some through an auto windshield. It will likely have to wait until next year.

[Unobtanium]

Sorry, went past my 30m edit window
Most of the slugs I see tested are Winchesters and HP slugs, at that. I have shot the Remington Slugger 1oz@1560fps slugs a good bit at harder things, and found that they compress and expand radially much less than Winchester slugs, and do not "hollow out" like the Winchester HP slugs. While they are not as hard as the Brenneke's or Federal DP, I think that they would offer a very happy "medium".

Has any testing been done to this effect?

Here is the only gel test I can find of this slug:


11" of gel + a "polypack" that stopped it, whatever that is. The slug looks like most of its kind I have shot into berms, milk-jugs, etc.

I didn’t have enough material to fashion another 5”x5”X13.5” block, but I was able to stack enough odds and ends together to form a makeshift test block that was 11 inches in length. The Slugger penetrated the block completely and was stopped by the first poly pack. The maximum width of the cavity was 5 ¾ inches and did not reach the edges of the block.
The recovered Slugger. The recovered projectile retained all of it mass and expanded to a diameter of .9 inches.

Once you push them faster, say, in the 3" variety, they start to come apart.

Next time I get a chance, I would like to put some through an auto windshield. It will likely have to wait until next year.

***Actual Chronograph data of the 1oz 2.75" "Sluggers" reveals an MV of around 1425-1450fps. Winchester 2.75" 1oz slugs move out at an actual velocity of 1600fps+. Given the frontal area of the slug, I think that driving them under 1500fps has a huge effect on their integrity.

This is what a Slugger looks like after wallboard:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-...e-box-o-truth/

For things like auto-glass and car-doors, I remain curious and skeptical of the 1oz 1560fps launched Slugger, but I have experienced myself, as well as seen others experience that this slug holds together, expands to a bit under and inch, and doesn't seem to come apart like the Winchesters or its 3" Magnum sibling.

YMMV, and I am curious to hear the experiences/thoughts of others. I just think that for some things, a happy medium might be what's best (black bear, deer, home defense in a semi-rural setting where you would prefer the slug didn't go through the WHOLE structure and external wall still looking pretty), etc.

Doc, did you or have you seen this exact load tested in the lab setting? 1560fps 1oz Remington "Slugger"? I'm curious as to what you have observed from it.

[ASH556]

While on the topic, are there any issues shooting these slugs from an auto like a Benelli M1? Too hot of a load for a semi?

[GJM]

While on the topic, are there any issues shooting these slugs from an auto like a Benelli M1? Too hot of a load for a semi?

Not sure what "these slugs" refers to, but if you mean Brenneke slugs, I have shot cases of them through various shotguns over the years, including Benelli M1/M2 shotguns. My experience is that semi auto shotguns typically have problems with light loads, not heavy ones. No idea if you have a 3 gun shotgun tuned for light loads, whether shooting, many, many Brenneke slugs would accelerate wear, but I suspect your shoulder and retinas would wear out first.

[Unobtanium]

While on the topic, are there any issues shooting these slugs from an auto like a Benelli M1? Too hot of a load for a semi?

Part of the testing in the .pdf by Brenneke lists them as having been fired from a Benelli M4.

[ASH556]

Ok, sounds good. I thought it might beat up the action a bit, but it seems not to be a concern.

[Unobtanium]

Ok, sounds good. I thought it might beat up the action a bit, but it seems not to be a concern.

Well, you asked about an M1.

How does an M1 work?

Well...the weapon is fired. Stresses are transferred to the chamber and bolt-head, as well as the "weapon as a whole" under recoil. The chamber is proofed to higher pressures than this round. The lugs of the bolt and chamber/locking surfaces will be fine. Then what happens, is the spring behind the bolt is compressed while the BCG remains stationary as the rifle recoils around it (laws/rules of physics, Inertia). The pressure in the chamber subsides, and the spring pushes the BCG assembly back, compressing the action spring in the "buffer tube", which will bottom out, with the BCG hitting the back of the receiver, and then fling the assembly forward into battery chambering another round (or locking back on empty.)

What does this mean?

-The BCG cannot move backward faster than the spring in the BCG will push it.
-The BCG cannot move forward faster than the spring in the "buffer tube" will push it.
-I doubt either are capable of causing damage to the weapon.
-Thus the limits of material integrity become: Chamber pressure/bore pressure (are you shooting a solid tungsten slug through a forcing cone/choke, etc...), recoil affecting the stock/barrel/receiver interface/barrel hangers/etc. via harmonics or physical stress. Neither of which will likely be sufficient to damage the weapon within the constraints of the proofed chamber-pressure.

The same goes for the M4, except the pistons which power it push the BCG using gasses from just in front of the chamber. These pistons have "caps" above them. A spring in the cap depresses a "pintle" and when the spring is over-powered, gasses are vented from the "caps". No more gas can power the pistons/BCG than this assembly allows. The assembly likely will not allow any more gas than would assure proper function. Even the 4-port M4 barrels meant for low-recoil ammunition only took a few hundred rounds to snap pistons/deform carriers, and that was allowing MUCH MORE gas-flow into the system (failures occurred when full-power slugs/buck were used).

[BLR]

There is no bigger fan than me WRT 870s and Brennekes.

That said.....

It is quite a simple matter to orchestrate very dramatic looking "anti-material" demonstrations. Think about the old M16-watermellon demo. Quite spectacular if you don't know what you are looking at. Material, armor or otherwise, are unique, and some things do better with some rounds. Ceramic does a great job with high velocity stuff, while steel does a great job with low to medium velocity stuff. Take the engine block picture - cast iron is wonderfully brittle, as evident of the fracture surface in the picture. You could do similar damage with a ball peen hammer. The slug does well with glass because of momentum. That low energy, high momentum causes it trouble with higher strength stuff like steel. Does a great job with ballistic gel too.

YMMV

Bill

[Malamute]

There is no bigger fan than me WRT 870s and Brennekes.

That said.....

It is quite a simple matter to orchestrate very dramatic looking "anti-material" demonstrations. Think about the old M16-watermellon demo. Quite spectacular if you don't know what you are looking at. Material, armor or otherwise, are unique, and some things do better with some rounds. Ceramic does a great job with high velocity stuff, while steel does a great job with low to medium velocity stuff. Take the engine block picture - cast iron is wonderfully brittle, as evident of the fracture surface in the picture. You could do similar damage with a ball peen hammer. The slug does well with glass because of momentum. That low energy, high momentum causes it trouble with higher strength stuff like steel. Does a great job with ballistic gel too.

YMMV

Bill

I've shot holes in engine blocks with 45-70 black powder loads with 400 gr cast wheel weight lead bullets. 300 gr Hornadys with 75 grs 3-f black also punched large holes.