Philosophy on fisticuffs?

[Terence]

That's a lot of arguments. Let me sort out where I stand on this vertical fist thing, and see if it helps.

To the best of my knowledge, you see a vertical fist in some Karate styles, in some Kung Fu styles (if you've seen chain punching, you know what I mean) and in JKD which is also known as Jun Fan Gong Fu, which is Bruce Lee's Chinese name. There are also some Savate strikes using a vertical fist.

The wraps and gloves that boxers use are intended primarily to protect their hands, not their opponent's face or body. Hitting your opponent for 12 rounds would risk terrible injury to your hands, and would profoundly shorten your career as a boxer.

My (4 years) background is in Muay Thai, so I've never done any other punching other than the conventional way, except for the short hook, as mentioned by Sensei up-thread. But I'm pretty sure that wraps and gloves would protect you no matter which way you hold your hands.

I don't know if your metacarpals are more or less prone to injury with horizontal or vertical punching with or without wraps and gloves. I would like to know.

The punching mechanics with vertical fists may be equal or superior for some strikes. I know the JKD guys do a chun-choi pak-sao hand trap into snappy punch that makes my face hurt. I can't say that its definitively better, but I don't discount stuff that Bruce Lee did without a good reason. Still, if you've ever seen Ali knock a guy out while moving backwards, you don't question that the conventional hand position can deliver a lot of power as well

The one area where I would definitely want a conventional hand position is with an uppercut or what I was taught is called a 'shovel-hook'. If you can throw a lead uppercut with a vertical fist that works as well as a horizontal one, you have my respect. I don't think it can be done.

As for advantages in any environment where you could end up on the ground, I think what you had for lunch that day will have more effect on your success than if you punch with your fist vertically or horizontally. The UFC guys wear those little 4 or 6 ounce gloves, with the fingers free so they can grapple, but they punch mostly with horizontal fists.

[TR675]

I've never tried striking with a vertical fist, so would like to know how, if at all, y'all think it affects (a) reach and (b) power.

More input on how it's superior for blocking would be interesting too; I've been under the impression that blocking in a for-real fight is a non-starter.

[Terence]

This image here (SFW) shows some striking with a vertical fist. And as a bonus its Ip Man.
http://www.iwco.info/content/en/images/wysiwyg/216.jpg

[Terence]

As for blocking in a real fight, there are probably a couple definitions for 'real fight.' There's boxing fights, UFC fights, karate fights, street fights....

In Muay Thai, we shield kicks with our shins. Its fast, and while it hurts a bit, its better than taking a Thai kick to the thigh. If you wear shinpads, its no big deal.

You can also slip a kick or punch by leaning back. And you can block or parry a punch. Boxers do it all the time.

If you want to read more about what works in a boxing or UFC match, you can't go wrong with Jack Slack: http://fightland.vice.com/author/jack-slack (Link is SFW, but includes video and animated gifs of fighting) Slack has forgotten more about fighting than I will ever know.

[BaiHu]

Okay, hang on.

Is the argument that padding and wrapping allows fists to be used horizontally?

That bones in the hand are less prone to breakage when the fist is vertical?

That the punching mechanics of a vertical hand are superior to a horizontal hand?

Or that vertical fist punching mechanics are worse, but the tradeoffs in a grappling-positive environment are worth it because your arm won't be as easy to break?

Now that I have time on a proper keyboard, let me address some of my points.

1. A vertical straight punch has it's place. I believe it is the stronger of the straight punches. The full twist punch has 2 main weaknesses IMO: a) the full extension of the punch leaves an opening for pulling/locking and b) has more weak points along the way that can cause trouble for the lower back as I stated above.

2. Padding/wrapping is a modern convenience that gives both boxers and martial artists ways to mitigate their respective concerns. Boxing and karate have long histories of bare knuckle work. Longer still for the Asian arts, but this is a non-starter argument.

3. The rules of a sport often create the idiosyncrasies of movement/cover/technique that we see. UFC guys don't actively have to protect themselves from groin kicks, b/c it's against the rules for example.

4. As I stated previously, palm heel strikes are awesome. I highly recommend them over any other strikes, especially for the more novice student of pugilism.

5. Nowhere did I say a vertical 'uppercut' was better/advised. I would choose the palm heel or a traditional full twist fist position where the palm is facing the puncher when striking under the chin.

6. Bones are prone to being broken in any fist position if you are misaligned or hit a surface at the wrong angle. However, I believe the vertical straight punch mitigates this. I have used it on faces that required a mandibular/proximal phalanges meeting. Other than his teeth scraping my knuckles, I had no problem recovering from his face attacking my hand. This is not to say that other punches would not have been effective. Just that I believe the full twist punch would have introduced potential weakness (during this particular technique/need) from knuckles to feet as stated above. For the record, I am a huge proponent of palms down hooks into the body.

7. Any punch is a tool. It comes with it's pros and cons. If it's used successfully, then it was done well. My bias just leans towards the vertical punch given my training. What is my opinion for you is fact for me simply due to my experience. Don't let it color your world wrong, just let it show a different color that is my thinking. Try it out yourself and make your own decision. I am not your teacher and this 'lesson' is worth what you paid for it.

[EPF]

Like anything, if you're not supporting the full range of technique, then that's a problem of teaching, not always style. Point sparring is like dry fire, without live fire, you're only getting part of the experience. Bag work, focus mitt work, partner drills that are compliant and non-compliant all can change someone's point sparring game of "tag" into a nice skill set.

Besides, due to the litigious society we live in, going all out every time you show up to class can a) grind everyone down and/or b) raise your insurance premiums or have you dropped. There goes your training gym. Insurance still has parameters and a waiver is only so much protection. A good balance of detailed drill work coupled with testing out that detail work with multiple partners under different levels of intensity is ideal.

So, how do you pressure test your methods against those skills? How often are you sparring "hard" with an open rule set against opponents with a high level of skill in boxing/thai/judo/wrestling/jits ? How often is appropriate?

When you do, and are successful, what percentage of what your doing is recognizable as part of your TMA?

[BaiHu]

So, how do you pressure test your methods against those skills? How often are you sparring "hard" with an open rule set against opponents with a high level of skill in boxing/thai/judo/wrestling/jits ? How often is appropriate?

When you do, and are successful, what percentage of what your doing is recognizable as part of your TMA?

I teach TMA with a civil defense minded focus for a living. I like to exchange with anyone that comes in, but b/c I'm a TMA school, people looking for boxing/MT/wrestling/JJ aren't necessarily looking for me. When I went to ECQC, my focus was on what SN could teach me. I learned from SN. Valuable enough information that I'm looking to have it imparted to my students when I get him to my school.

As far as how often is appropriate? I think that's different for different people training for different things who all have different lifestyle requirements. How often to you spar hard and why?

Lastly, regarding 'percentages', it's all MA in the end. Whether you're mixing your CM with MT or your Goju with JJ, I don't make a distinction as to when I step out of 'my TMA' and stumble into someone else's x, y or z technique. Thinking that way, IMO, is a fool's errand. Learn to defend yourself with credible techniques. That's the goal. And even that last statement can be picked clean.

What techniques should you learn? Why?
What is a credible technique? How do you test it? Why test it a particular way?

Lastly and for the record, I'm just giving you my opinion on my experiences. I teach TMA, b/c that's what I like, what I fell into, found the most engaging instruction in. I didn't leave, b/c it suited my personality. Despite the popularity of MMA, etc, our school still survived. We're a product that has a place on the shelf of MA or self-defense.

You don't need to buy my product. This is the internet. There is a metric ton of things that could possibly interest me that I'll never get around to even knowing about. I can't miss what I don't know about. If it seems like I was having a longboard measuring contest on what's the best style, etc then maybe I misrepresented my larger point: finding someone who teaches a style well and find someone who knows how to integrate that style into your life so that it is there when you need it.

If I simply made you think about punching or training differently, then I achieved my goal.

Hope that helps and good luck with your training.

[orionz06]

I teach TMA with a civil defense minded focus for a living. I like to exchange with anyone that comes in, but b/c I'm a TMA school, people looking for boxing/MT/wrestling/JJ aren't necessarily looking for me. When I went to ECQC, my focus was on what SN could teach me. I learned from SN. Valuable enough information that I'm looking to have it imparted to my students when I get him to my school.

As far as how often is appropriate? I think that's different for different people training for different things who all have different lifestyle requirements. How often to you spar hard and why?

Lastly, regarding 'percentages', it's all MA in the end. Whether you're mixing your CM with MT or your Goju with JJ, I don't make a distinction as to when I step out of 'my TMA' and stumble into someone else's x, y or z technique. Thinking that way, IMO, is a fool's errand. Learn to defend yourself with credible techniques. That's the goal. And even that last statement can be picked clean.

What techniques should you learn? Why?
What is a credible technique? How do you test it? Why test it a particular way?

Lastly and for the record, I'm just giving you my opinion on my experiences. I teach TMA, b/c that's what I like, what I fell into, found the most engaging instruction in. I didn't leave, b/c it suited my personality. Despite the popularity of MMA, etc, our school still survived. We're a product that has a place on the shelf of MA or self-defense.

You don't need to buy my product. This is the internet. There is a metric ton of things that could possibly interest me that I'll never get around to even knowing about. I can't miss what I don't know about. If it seems like I was having a longboard measuring contest on what's the best style, etc then maybe I misrepresented my larger point: finding someone who teaches a style well and find someone who knows how to integrate that style into your life so that it is there when you need it.

If I simply made you think about punching or training differently, then I achieved my goal.

Hope that helps and good luck with your training.

Excellent response. I'd be interested to hear more on what you took from ECQC and how it influenced your instruction, especially since you expressed intent on hosting Craig.

[EM_]

I've never tried striking with a vertical fist, so would like to know how, if at all, y'all think it affects (a) reach and (b) power.

More input on how it's superior for blocking would be interesting too; I've been under the impression that blocking in a for-real fight is a non-starter.

Dempsey, regarded as one of the better power punchers in boxing legend, punched with a vertical fist. A fella you may have heard of, Bruce something-or-other, reportedly used Dempsey's excellent text on boxing as a basis for his punching.

I believe Dempsey's book is available online.

[BaiHu]

Excellent response. I'd be interested to hear more on what you took from ECQC and how it influenced your instruction, especially since you expressed intent on hosting Craig.

For a guy like me, who has not been in the military, law enforcement or professional ring, his class is an invaluable potpourri of mindset, techniques, tactics and discipline. My 3 teaching pillars are discipline, awareness and organization. Craig super sizes these pillars by voluntarily putting these pillars to the test in very dangerous situations. Most importantly, him surviving his mistakes, coming out stronger and then sharing his solutions so other people don't make the mistakes he made is admirable. You don't get better by hiding your mistakes.

For the record, I can only use the word 'mistakes', b/c that's how Craig would label them. Those mistakes may or may not be 'his', they could also be departmental, etc too.

I'm glad to post more, but I'm going back into class and I figured that this would create more questions. I can always go into details as to what I really want Craig to impart to my students.