Philosophy on fisticuffs?

[BaiHu]

Perfectly put will_1400. For the record, I agree with every single bit. Especially the rank and lineage stuff.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

As BaiHu said, sounds like he was more of a fighter than a traditional martial artist and, like BaiHu, I intend no insult when I say that. I personally know several guys whose only training was cracking skulls in the pub every month or so and I wouldn't take them lightly. As much as they're denigrated, a brawler with a good bit of willpower and experience can be (and is likely) a formidable foe and not to be taken lightly. I'm not saying that's the case at your old gym, but rather just throwing that out as an example.

When it comes to belts, to be frank, they're little more than a quick way to identify those who have (or at least should have) a certain level of knowledge and proficiency. You could take someone like Bill Wallace and have him tie on a white belt, but it won't suddenly make him less dangerous than he is. Several fighting style that I consider martial arts (folk wrestling, boxing, etc) don't even use belts for ranking, but I have no illusions as to what a skilled practitioner can do and I often train with them, offering to trade my knowledge for theirs. Sadly, the public at large sees a guy wearing a gi and a black belt and suddenly he's apparently an instant badass. It also doesn't help there are so many black belt mills in the market. As far as my dojo goes, having a black belt means one is qualified to teach a class; in fact, as a brown belt, I had to teach at least four classes successfully before I was promoted (also, my dojo didn't do rank tests; once you reached a certain skill level that you can replicate consistently, you get the belt though for shodan or 1st degree black belt you do perform a demonstration to show how fare you've come). A competent TMA instructor can take someone with no prior training and make them what I consider a "proper" black belt (meaning no rank inflating BS) in four to seven years depending on how committed the student is.

Being a black belt (shodan since 2008 in my case since life keeps me from regularly training at my home dojo, FWIW), I hardly consider myself to be a "badass". Rather, I know I can handle myself and know I can get my ass kicked. I'd even put good money on Craig making short work of me at an ECQC seminar. I'm good, but I know my limitations. There's always someone who is better and I'm fine with that. It gives me something to strive for and helps keep me from getting stupid.

Regarding the whole bit about lineage, Isshin-ryu as a whole has a big problem with people who don't know what they're doing claiming to be 8th Dan or higher setting up organizations to stroke their egos. In fact, our style's founder (Tatsuo Shimabuku) trained dozens of U.S. Marines in the style up to Shodan and then entrusted them with 6th Dan ranking provided they trained an additional 15 or 20 years (I forget which amount) before assuming such a title. Naturally, the majority broke out their 6th Dan certificates once they got home and quickly promoted themselves to 10th Dan (the absolute highest rank possible in Okinawan karate) within a couple years after returning to the States. This is one reason why I clarified what lineage I'm from (Sherman Harrill was one of the few to honor his word to Shimabuku and was one of the best technical fighters I've ever seen). I'd go into further detail, but then that would seriously derail the thread more than I've done already.

I definitely don't take offense to that. I'm certain my old instructor wouldn't either. Frankly I think he would take it as a compliment. His belief was, iirc, that consistently winning in the ring was more important than attaining ranks of any sort (hence his various titles as a brown belt).

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[DocGKR]

Damn, 16 pages and no one has posted the true answer about the philosophy on fisticuffs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3I_Ds2ytz4o

At this age and stage of my life coupled with my profession, my philosophy on fisticuffs is to just say NO if at all possible.

[Beat Trash]

The look on Indiana's face just prior to the shot is priceless...

[BaiHu]

Damn, 16 pages and no one has posted the true answer about the philosophy on fisticuffs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3I_Ds2ytz4o

At this age and stage of my life coupled with my profession, my philosophy on fisticuffs is to just say NO if at all possible.

16 pages later and I think the consensus would be the same as carrying a firearm. Don't do stupid kitten. Don't draw or go to fisticuffs until you are capable, have to and have the advantage to end the fight ASAP with those tools. Escaping and de-escalating are highly underrated and under-practiced skills.

[45dotACP]

16 pages later and I think the consensus would be the same as carrying a firearm. Don't do stupid kitten. Don't draw or go to fisticuffs until you are capable, have to and have the advantage to end the fight ASAP with those tools. Escaping and de-escalating are highly underrated and under-practiced skills.

Funny you say that. As I become a better conditioned fighter, I have found that my running speed has become much better. It's still option number one for me [emoji1]

As far as belts go, where I train, there are a lot of guys with previous grappling experience who just moved here and are looking for a place to roll. They get a white belt and a Gi, but in their previous school, they were very experienced grapplers. Turns out you never know somebody's skill level until you step on the mat with them.

[will_1400]

Funny you say that. As I become a better conditioned fighter, I have found that my running speed has become much better. It's still option number one for me [emoji1]

As far as belts go, where I train, there are a lot of guys with previous grappling experience who just moved here and are looking for a place to roll. They get a white belt and a Gi, but in their previous school, they were very experienced grapplers. Turns out you never know somebody's skill level until you step on the mat with them.

Very true on both counts. When I go to a school that wears gis and uses belts that is outside of my style, I'll wear my white belt so I'm not mistaken for someone who knows that style's material (I also consider it a mark of respect in that I'm trying to show that I'm not there to say my way is better or anything of the sort, but rather I'm there to learn), but it's easy for the others to see that I've trained for a while just by the way I move when learning the new techniques or when it's time to spar.

[45dotACP]

Just a heads up. I was at clinical and actually got to see a patient in the psych ward go from zero to violent. Turns out, some psych nurses attend inservices on what is called CPI....basically it's how to safely take down a patient. Experienced nurses can do it without messing up their hair. I have a totally new found respect for psychiatric nurses, counselors and staff. As a student, I was told to stand back, and fortunately, I was not the individual with whom the patient had a grievance, so I moseyed out of the way and let the professionals go to work.

If I had gone hands on, I would likely have been ejected from school and sued...

I guess my philosophy is this: Life can be dangerous. Be safe, defuse and back away as much as possible, and when you have alternative options...TAKE THEM.

At the risk of sounding cliche, it's all starting to become a little more clear.

[Cecil Burch]

I disagree with his premise about a few things, but it is a good article.

KevinB – Thanks for the nice words about the interview. I appreciate it.
If you don’t mind though, I am a little unsure about your disagreements with what I said, and maybe you can clear things up for me.

you wrote:

Combat Sports will work for 98% of the bad guys - the 2%er column does not care about pain, or non deadly damage - where certain elements have found the MMA/Cbt Sport package has failed is when pain compliance and even bone and joint destruction have not neutralized the target.

Can you clarify what techniques will work on that 2%? Not just for my personal practice, but as an instructor teaching this kind of material, I think it behooves me to always look for the best and most functional options out there, and if there is something else, I should add it. What techniques in your opinion will work on the 2% when things like multiple full power elbow strikes driven by gravity crashing down onto the bad guys’ skull fail? Or the straight armbar that snaps a person’s elbow and makes that limb useless (even if they are able to withstand the pain, the joint is now immobile)? Or the Triangle Choke that allows a small person to completely cut off the blood supply and sends everyone, even the biggest and toughest, into unconsciousness within 3 seconds (as the female sailor did in Turkey to an attempted rapist a couple of years ago)? Or a kneebar, that not only destroys the knee and the ability for someone to walk, but also imparts so much pain that a jacked up Brock Lesnar at his UFC Championship peak tapped out to save him the pain and damage. I think most people would consider that Lesnar probably falls into the 2% category!

I truly want to have for my own arsenal, and want to teach the highest percentage techniques possible, so if there are better options than the above, I want to add them.

Also, you wrote:

The mistake is missing that an opponent may use a blade or gun on you if they have the tool and mindset when you are not wired for it and instead trying to control the fight.

I could not agree more. That is why I said the same exact thing in the interview itself, multiple times. It is something I have also preached regularly on my blog, and make that very point on my DVD. It is also why Craig Douglas hammers the same thing home in ECQC. Or why some instructors like Paul Sharp in his MDOC course, or myself in my IAC course put in so much time teaching and training that kind of material during the course. As a matter of fact, the final training evolution on Day One in my fundamental ground course is a grappling situation with both sides armed with training guns and knives, and both sides are free to use weapons, strike, use foul tactics, or whatever they see fit. And, because I am a bit of a sadist, I will even at times throw in a third or fourth party into the mix. There is no pre-set answer either. I allow free reign on how it goes.

Here is the interesting thing though. I have been teaching my traveling course since 2008. I have also run a regular ECQC oriented training group for a while, and teach multiple boxing and BJJ classes per week. I have also assisted Craig a number of times in his courses (right now that number of AI-ing is in the double digits). By this time I have seen a lot of people come through this sort of training and I have some pretty good anecdotal evidence to reach some conclusions. And one conclusion that I can back up with plenty of evidence is that those who start with some combat sports background (MMA, BJJ, boxing, wrestling, judo, etc.) adjust FAR, FAR MORE quickly to the chaos of the close quarters H2H weapons environment fighting than people who enter into it from the gun side. It takes only a little time for the combat sports practitioner to adapt, while the firearm-centric guy may very well take years before he is able to muddle through with some chance of success. And that is not an exaggeration in the slightest. Go to any ECQC class and you will see it, every single time. There is a specific reason that Craig Douglas started advising people to look into BJJ and wrestling. When he started ECQC as an open enrollment class 10 years ago, it looked much different and Craig was not really a fan of BJJ or wrestling. He just happened to be looking at the problem honestly and saw the solution for what it was, and changed his instruction accordingly.

I was the same way. I came from a TMA background, and in fact, I favored SE Asian arts like Indonesian Pentjak Silat (which I held multiple instructor creds in). I loathed BJJ. I reluctantly did it only because I wanted to make sure I knew what they would try to do. It was only after actually doing realistic training, with a resisting opponent who had opposing will, malevolent intent and freedom of action, and seeing that what could be relied on to work, time after time, was combat sports, that I became a convert. My first ten years of BJJ was spent looking for a way to beat it, not embrace it.

And I really don't understand this comment:

instead trying to control the fight.

We may be at cross semantics, but the way I use the term control the fight (as does Craig, Paul sharp, and every BJJ/MMA practitioner) is that you don't control the "fight", you control the opponent. You work for positional dominance because that allows you the best way to prevent your opponent's escape or attack. And if I can stop the opponent from hitting me or escaping through control of of his body and limbs, how is he going to use a firearm or knife? Respectfully, I don't think you are understanding how the terminology is being used. Like saying "presentation" when referring to a cumulative series of actions with a handgun, saying positional dominance has little to do with position, and everything to do with exerting maximal control over the opponent, because that is the only way he can be finished off with a submission or KO strike. Or stabbing him or shooting him. Or keeping him form doing the same to you. It is all the same foundational concepts and techniques.

And this quote is really confusing to me:

where certain elements have found the MMA/Cbt Sport package has failed is when pain compliance

Could you give an example of pain compliance techniques in MMA? I don't know of any, so it would behoove me to understand what you mean before I respond.

[Mr_White]

I came from a TMA background, and in fact, I favored SE Asian arts like Indonesian Pentjak Silat (which I held multiple instructor creds in). I loathed BJJ. I reluctantly did it only because I wanted to make sure I knew what they would try to do. It was only after actually doing realistic training, with a resisting opponent who had opposing will, malevolent intent and freedom of action, and seeing that what could be relied on to work, time after time, was combat sports, that I became a convert. My first ten years of BJJ was spent looking for a way to beat it, not embrace it.

That's funny Cecil, I didn't realize that about you. I can relate from a far less dedicated position. I first saw the UFC starting with number two. The teenage Hung Gar Kung Fu practitioner that was me at the time was still hanging on for someone to beat the grapplers/combat sports guys around UFC 20. Eventually I got over it and came to recognize the effectiveness of combat sports.

And one conclusion that I can back up with plenty of evidence is that those who start with some combat sports background (MMA, BJJ, boxing, wrestling, judo, etc.) adjust FAR, FAR MORE quickly to the chaos of the close quarters H2H weapons environment fighting than people who enter into it from the gun side. It takes only a little time for the combat sports practitioner to adapt, while the firearm-centric guy may very well take years before he is able to muddle through with some chance of success. And that is not an exaggeration in the slightest. Go to any ECQC class and you will see it, every single time.

Even as a really low level ECQC student, I'd offer my complete agreement with this paragraph. I did some TMA as a kid and teenager, fenced competitively, eventually got into some knife and gun training, and finally did a small amount of BJJ training (a bit less than a year, a long time ago.) More recently, I have gone deep on the handgun in the last few years, just following what I personally find the most enjoyable – not out of a perceived necessity.

My ECQC experience, to whatever degree I navigated it successfully, was related specifically to a couple of things:

The BJJ training, as low level as I am, allowed me to prevent being summarily dominated on the ground and remain calm during times of pressure in ECQC.

Remaining calm allowed me to make better decisions, something I've trained plenty in scenario/FOF defensive pistol training. But being calm enabled the decisionmaking, and BJJ enabled the calmness.