Tom Givens, American Handgunner article

[rob_s]

For example, somebody whose first shot on target time at seven yards is 2.5 seconds really should be working more on presentation than reloading. They'd have to actually get the gun out and run in it dry... that might be optimistic...

This is something I've always taken issue with in line-dancing classes. I have had instructors say things like "hurry up, we have a lot to get to today".

No, in fact, we do not. If even so much as 1/3 of the students are struggling with the skill, drill, or concept being taught then you need to stay with it until they get it. When I teach/taught (firearms or real-world work skills) we don't move on until I have determined that the people not getting it are either refusing to (you can't fix stupid, or arrogant) or are in over their head (snuck/BD'd their Level 01 ass into a level 03 course). At my job I schedule time blocks, not curriculum. We work through the most important skills/concepts first, and we go for two hours. We get to what we get to. Then we come back in a week or two and we do two more hours. Repeat as needed.

So, to expound on what some others are saying here...

The first thing is being able to get the gun out of the holster, in whatever context it would actually be carried. Want to talk about a "gunfighting" class vs. a "shooting" class? that's step 1 to a difference that means something (relaxed accuracy standards, shooting from reverse prone one-handed, and photo-realistic targets do not make a "gunfighting" class). *Maybe* the students should be learning the draw without a cover/concealment garment on TD1 out of 3, but they should at least be using their carry holster. Often you'll hear from higher level shooters "it doesn't matter what holster I use", but you can bet your bippy that it matters when you're new.

The second thing is how to go from the holster, to a good two-handed grip, possibly in positions other than standing straight ahead to a flat target, and get the gun up to eye level. Note that the lessons posted earlier in the thread don't actually say to get a sight picture, they just say to get it up to eye level. If we're worried about 3-7 yards, seeing the hazy outline of the gun in front of the target and firing continuously until the target is no longer in front of the gun isn't terribly hard. Getting that same result "from retention" gets a lot harder.

[BehindBlueI's]

In my career we have naver had a copper need to reload in a fight.

Keith Jones told me that Indianapolis had like 120+ OISs that he had data on, and even back in the revolver days they had only one guy that needed to reload.

However, comma, when a guy needs to reload then he NEEDS to reload, Newhall or Miami anyone?

I know this is an older thread, but I'm actually with Indy and just wanted to say we keep excellent stats. Our range staff sends a rep (generally the unit LT) to every PAS, and the events are often used to create scenario based training for in-service. I'm a robbery detective and have started keeping my own detailed stats for citizen involved shootings. I do know of a few reloads, but they were all in multiple officer situations. There were officers who reloaded and then fired again during the 2012 incident recounted (mostly incorrectly) here: http://www.wthr.com/story/19135760/o...wn-in-lawrence I don't know that it was "needed" in that injury would have occurred had the officer not done so, but it was entirely reasonable in the situation.

I cannot think of a single robbery where the victim reloaded, win, lose, or draw. I've had a few (and really just a few) shoot to slide lock. In those rare instances where there was video the suspect was down or fleeing but the shooter's mind hadn't caught up with the change in status yet and was still firing. I have never had anyone use a flashlight or lament the lack of one.

[Chuck Haggard]

I know this is an older thread, but I'm actually with Indy and just wanted to say we keep excellent stats. Our range staff sends a rep (generally the unit LT) to every PAS, and the events are often used to create scenario based training for in-service. I'm a robbery detective and have started keeping my own detailed stats for citizen involved shootings. I do know of a few reloads, but they were all in multiple officer situations. There were officers who reloaded and then fired again during the 2012 incident recounted (mostly incorrectly) here: http://www.wthr.com/story/19135760/o...wn-in-lawrence I don't know that it was "needed" in that injury would have occurred had the officer not done so, but it was entirely reasonable in the situation.

I cannot think of a single robbery where the victim reloaded, win, lose, or draw. I've had a few (and really just a few) shoot to slide lock. In those rare instances where there was video the suspect was down or fleeing but the shooter's mind hadn't caught up with the change in status yet and was still firing. I have never had anyone use a flashlight or lament the lack of one.

Keith's data base may be a bit older than yours, but his info is always solid. I'll ask him what the time frame was.

[BigDaddy]

So does all this mean I can dump my G19 and go back to my 3953 for off duty carry?

[David S.]

Tom's data does seem to indicate that 8 rounds is more than enough to get you through a typical (non-LEO/MIL) defensive gun use.

Tom knows his data better than anyone, and yet... and yet.... stubbornly EDC's the biggest damn gun he can. A G35 with reload(s?), IIRC. Weirdo.

So it's a matter of trade-offs. Do you get enough (fill in the blank) to balance the 50% loss of capacity. Personally, giving up that much capacity for a negligible size difference seems like a poor trade-off. But that's just me.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

This is an old point. Many interpret the average as what will always happen as compared to what is more probable. The question is whether you plan for the extreme of the tail of the incident intensity distribution. The video of the GGs at the Kenya mall has commentary on how they noticed that they didn't have that many rounds.

Garland incidents are rare, single actor muggings close up are more common. So David S. is quite correct on the trade offs. A G26, 19 and an extra mag is not a pain with a concealment garment.

[LSP972]

So does all this mean I can dump my G19 and go back to my 3953 for off duty carry?

Why would you want to? The 3953 is definitely thinner, but weighs as much or more with 2/3 of the capacity.

I ran across a very nice 3953 last year, and snapped it up. Bought a bunch of extra magazines, had a carry rig built, the whole thing. Started work-ups; it had been a looonnnggg time since I handled a third generation S&W auto. The gun passed the 200 round test, the holster and mag pouch was good to go, okay, we're set. I carried it a few days, and… huh? No heavenly choir, etc.

BigDaddy, sorry if this appears to be dumping on your thoughts. That wasn't my intention. But your post got me to thinking how being all into certain retro stuff has bitten me in the ass; get excited, expend the resources, then realize the newer stuff makes more sense and/or actually works better.

To answer your question, the "stats" tell us you won't ever need to reload- or hardly ever. OTOH, if your luck is like mine, you will be the statistical anomaly that finds you facing a dozen clumsy oafs with baseball bats; IOW, a sack full of assailants you just might be able to prevail against… if only you had enough burrets.

Now that my "off-duty" carry is also my "every day" carry, I pay a bit more attention to this stuff. But it is real easy to pay too MUCH attention to it, and find yourself chasing your tail.

Don't ask me how I know that…

.

[EM_]

...But it is real easy to pay too MUCH attention to it, and find yourself chasing your tail.

Don't ask me how I know that…

.

I fully agree. We (kinda folks that would post/read this forum) tend to delve into the minutiae a bit too much....

I'm as guilty as anyone, so definitely not shitting on anyone's philosophy or ideas, just a thought.

[Dagga Boy]

I posted on another forum the fooling in regards to "the best concealed carry revolver". There is the best gun for carrying it concealed daily comfortably, and the best gun to have if you are in a multi subject gun fight. The "best is likely a compromise somewhere in the middle. It is hard to carry ideal gunfight pistols daily concealed. You very much have to dress and live around the gun......sort of like Tom (Fashion plate) Givens. It is easy to carry an 11 ounce revolver......and hard to win multi subject gunfights. For many of us who carry a service size handgun and a BUG daily......it is a tough lifestyle, but I doubt I will ever be in a situation where I need more. I would love to live the life of an airweight revolver in my pocket as a primary, but I don't live in that place yet.

I think most people would really be good with a medium slim semi auto with a reload, if that is what it takes to carry it everday. The same with a medium frame revolver and a reload. These are "good" compromise guns if you will dedicate to them, especially for non-LE folks who do a better job than the LEO's at not feeling the need to get involved in things that are not a directed threat at them.

[GJM]

The other Tom, Tom Jones, needs to invent something, so if you need it for real, whatever gun you have grows in size and capacity, since I have never known someone to want a smaller, lower capacity firearm during a time of need.