Re-holstering on the clock, good, bad, or indifferent?

[Failure2Stop]

The third video, which I added after you posted, shows Stage 5 of the USCA Nationals. I though there was even video somewhere of a handgun popping out of a race holster but I can't find it now. I believe the Noveske page also had video of their shooters having to hold the pistol in the holster while running.

I can't find a COF description now (can't recall if they were posted before the event or not)

For the benefit of others who are un-blocked, here is more from that stage at that match.

http://youtu.be/ulPCOkJp358

http://youtu.be/-0qeBaMNKr8

Got my filter taken care of.

All of the USCA nationals stages that involved a pistol/carbine change-over had a dump point.
In the stage 5 videos, you can see it at the end of the "hallway".
Now, there is a bit of an error in that the dump point could only be used if the shooter finished at that port (not dictated by the stage description or rules), so if the shooter finished on a closer port, they would have had to holster.
Easy fix to that is that there should have been another dump-point.

[rob_s]

Unfortunately not all shooters that attend these events are at the same level and the rules must accommodate those that do not have the experience to handle firearms in an advanced environment.

Excellent point. I call it "lowest common denominator stage design".

When I started SFDCC we would let anyone with a pulse come and shoot with us. In the beginning, that meant 99% known shooters as we weren't really advertising and I personally knew everyone that came out. As things grew, we couldn't keep doing things the way that we were because we were getting shooters that didn't know poop from brown bread. So we established a "qualifier" where we got eyes on every shooter and put them through a prescribed series of increasingly-difficult standards to check their proficiency and safety. That way we knew that every shooter was up to the task at hand. As things continued to grow, running the qualifier got tedious so we "dumbed down" the matches to the level that anyone off the street could perform the tasks at hand (basically, we eliminated the pistol from the matches altogether). Now that I am not running things, they are back to "no new shooters", although I'm not entirely clear on how that filter works since I'm just a shooter and in no way involved in the admin (other than the occasional scorekeeping, SOing, or advising on stage design).

[rob_s]

Got my filter taken care of.

All of the USCA nationals stages that involved a pistol/carbine change-over had a dump point.
In the stage 5 videos, you can see it at the end of the "hallway".
Now, there is a bit of an error in that the dump point could only be used if the shooter finished at that port (not dictated by the stage description or rules), so if the shooter finished on a closer port, they would have had to holster.
Easy fix to that is that there should have been another dump-point.

that is good to know. It isn't clear in the rules, nor is it clear in all of the COF/videos I've seen, nor has it been made clear in the other discussions I've had on the topic (they all trend towards "there's nothing wrong with requiring holstering on the clock" with no mention of "we don't require it, there's always a dump bucket").

At which point the question changes to whether it should be allowed, if it is never required. As well as the question of stage design which would eliminate these issues entirely, most of which would simply require a reversal of the stage to start with the carbine.

[Failure2Stop]

that is good to know. It isn't clear in the rules, nor is it clear in all of the COF/videos I've seen, nor has it been made clear in the other discussions I've had on the topic (they all trend towards "there's nothing wrong with requiring holstering on the clock" with no mention of "we don't require it, there's always a dump bucket").

At which point the question changes to whether it should be allowed, if it is never required. As well as the question of stage design which would eliminate these issues entirely, most of which would simply require a reversal of the stage to start with the carbine.

I would much rather have the discussion of whether or not to allow it, rather than discussing whether or not to have dump points.
For an event with a broad range of attendees, I would fall into the side of "no holstering on clock". Pretty easy to run two times if needed.

[Josh Runkle]

I personally fall on the side of: it isn't necessary if done right, and if done wrong causes injury and stops shooting for the day

This.

There is no certainty that hot reholstering will cause an accident, but there is little point to doing it, especially when it could cause an accident. The point of a shooting sport is to allow people to enjoy a shooting event IN A SAFE MANNER. I don't believe that hot reholstering is always dangerous, but it doesn't promote safety at an event where someone may have ZERO safety training. I feel that hot-SPEED-reholstering makes things much less safe.

Even for officers practicing speed reholstering to put cuffs on someone: no reason it can't be done with an unloaded gun or a blue gun. The technique might rarely have it's place, but mitigation of danger should also occur in training and competition.

[orionz06]

I suspect it depends on the participants and the goal. Among my friends, non-AIWB, for nothing other than beer? Probably OK.

There was a match in Michigan where I kinda reacted the same way as you, Rob, thinking it was really dumb. Folks involved were quick to mention that the right people, right stage, and right RO's make all the difference.


That said, I would likely stray from a match that did this now.

[Jack Ryan]

Guns are not toys. Don't play games with guns.

[Failure2Stop]

Guns are not toys. Don't play games with guns.

I'm not quite following you.
Are you saying that we shouldn't compete in games such as IDPA, USPSA, GSSF, Bianchi Cup, etc., because guns are too dangerous to use in a sport (game)?

I would propose that gun games are the number one use for above average gun owners.

I have certainly shot more rounds in competition than I have in actual gunfights, and have learned more in a competitive environment than I have in 99% of my government funded training.

[rob_s]

...the right people, right stage, and right RO's make all the difference.

For sure. Although I would say it's a combination of all of those criteria being met, not just one or two.

As mentioned, we shifted things to make what we wanted to do work the shooters that we were getting, or we filtered the shooters so that we could do what we wanted to. Both methods work well. I have also run private range days with personally-known shooters and there is certainly a different approach to much of what we do in those cases, starting with everyone remaining hot all the time vs. the constant "cold range" you find at most matches & even training.

[TAZ]

Guns are not toys. Don't play games with guns.

The shooter wasn't finger effing her gun for giggles; she made a mistake under stress, which is not all that difficult to do for new shooter or even older shooter.

Aside from some specific applications there is very little reason for the speed holster. As such the risk to reward ratio at a match is way out of balance. From a competitor's or a MD's view point the risks are too great to allow; much less mandate re holstering on then clock. As a competitor I would take time penalty and holster as I normally do; or if I felt I couldn't stop myself from going fast just pass on the stage and move on with life. What's the penalty for dumping a gun in the dirt??