Re-holstering on the clock, good, bad, or indifferent?

[rob_s]

At a two-gun match in Florida recently a female first-time competitor shot herself in the leg while re-holstering a loaded pistol on the clock. As I understand it the COF did not offer a way to safely ground or otherwise ditch the pistol and in fact required the shooter to re-holster before switching to the rifle and engaging targets. This was not a case of two strings, but one continuous string that began with the pistol and ended with the carbine.

I believe that holstering a hot pistol on the clock is adding a level of danger that comes with no benefit to the shooter or the game.

Some have used the argument that the 3GN rules allow a shooter to holster on the clock, but I believe this argument is not applicable as the rules also state that no COF can REQUIRE a shooter to do so, meaning they must be given the option of grounding. Additionally, their rules state that you can't shoot prone with a loaded pistol in the holster, further reducing the number of times a shooter would holster a loaded pistol on the clock.

Others have used the argument that "because:tactical" in one flavor or another. I believe this argument is also flawed because (A) this is a game, not a SWAT raid and (B) even if it were a SWAT raid the possibility of needing to speed re-holster is so slim as to not be a skill that would need to be repeatedly tested in a match environment.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on this. It would be helpful if you state some context about yourself, such as wether or not you shoot competitively, if so what favors of competition you shoot, etc.

[Chris Rhines]

I don't like it. The risk of shooting one's self is real and substantial, and there's no benefit that I'm aware of.

I compete a lot, in 3-Gun, USPSA, IDPA, and other gun games. I'm a USPSA Production master and an IDPA SSP/ESP master. I shoot 8-10 major matches every year.

[BLR]

At a two-gun match in Florida recently a female first-time competitor shot herself in the leg while re-holstering a loaded pistol on the clock. As I understand it the COF did not offer a way to safely ground or otherwise ditch the pistol and in fact required the shooter to re-holster before switching to the rifle and engaging targets. This was not a case of two strings, but one continuous string that began with the pistol and ended with the carbine.

I believe that holstering a hot pistol on the clock is adding a level of danger that comes with no benefit to the shooter or the game.

Some have used the argument that the 3GN rules allow a shooter to holster on the clock, but I believe this argument is not applicable as the rules also state that no COF can REQUIRE a shooter to do so, meaning they must be given the option of grounding. Additionally, their rules state that you can't shoot prone with a loaded pistol in the holster, further reducing the number of times a shooter would holster a loaded pistol on the clock.

Others have used the argument that "because:tactical" in one flavor or another. I believe this argument is also flawed because (A) this is a game, not a SWAT raid and (B) even if it were a SWAT raid the possibility of needing to speed re-holster is so slim as to not be a skill that would need to be repeatedly tested in a match environment.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on this. It would be helpful if you state some context about yourself, such as wether or not you shoot competitively, if so what favors of competition you shoot, etc.

I shoot USPSA semi-competitively (no where as serious as before, solid B shooter in SS now). My passion is pins, so in that respect, holstering is a moot point.

I tend to agree, though. From the outside looking in, I have trouble coming up with a situation where speed holstering a hot gun quickly is of a benefit. YMMV, not a tacktickle person.

[Little Creek]

I believe that holstering on the clock, unless the slide is locked back, is just plain stupid. It should not only not be required, but should not be encouraged or even allowed. It is an accident waiting to happen. That is a no brainer. One should transition to the pistol once the rifle/carbine is empty, not the other way around.

I am 13 years retired from a 28 year Local/Federal LEO career. I started PPC competition in 1973. I started IPSC competiton in 1976. I went to the IPSC/USPSA Nationals 5 times during the 1980s. My best finish was 21st out of approximately 450. During my LEO career, one of my collateral duties was Firearms Instructor. I dabble in local 3gun, steel, and GSSF matches at this time. I am no longer hostile, mobile, and agile.

[Failure2Stop]

I shot that match.
I was present when it happened.
I was a direct witness, aided the injured woman, and was present until after the ambulance and police left.

1) The woman holstered at a point that did not require holstering.

2) There was a barrel at the carbine/pistol change-over point, which could be used to dump the empty pistol.

I make those clarifications not to argue, simply to put everyone on the same page in accordance with actual events.

Now, I do tend to agree that holstering a hot gun with easily defeatable safeties, on the clock is a bad idea. There are certain jobs that have the necessity to speed-holster; those jobs also come with training. Could an "average" person be forced to speed-holster at some point? The possibility exists. Is that something that needs to be part of a competition?

Now, most folks will agree that the answer to the last question is "no".
Every match that I have been to had a provision for dumping the pistol.
Do I always dump the pistol? Nope.
Do I sometimes holster a hot gun? Yup.
At any point was I forced to holster a hot gun? Nope.
Do I think that it's a good idea to dump instead of holstering for the majority of competitors? Yup.

I will submit that as long as the competitor is afforded the opportunity to dump the last used firearm, then the onus is on the competitor to determine if they want to holster a hot pistol.

This lady will not be the last one to self-inflict an injury on a range, regardless of what rules are implemented.

[rob_s]

I shot that match.
This lady will not be the last one to self-inflict an injury on a range, regardless of what rules are implemented.

I think that goes without saying. You can't fix stupid. You can, however, mitigate the opportunity for stupid. And, I would argue, anyone who is a Match Director, Rule writer/implementer, COF designer, or RO/SO volunteers to take on the responsibility to mitigate stupid to one degree or another.

Which brings up the question at hand, which is whether or not a COF or a set of rules for action competition shooting should require (or even allow, for that matter) holstering on the clock. Even if the event (which I intentionally left vague) didn't fit the parameters of the question, the fact is that the codified rules for the "association" allow/encourage it and other events and stages shot under those rules require/encourage/allow it.

For example, on the stages below, is there a place for the shooter to safely dump the pistol? Does the COF not appear to require the shooter to holster on the clock?

And, perhaps more subjectively, is there any reason the stage could not have been arranged such that the pistol portion was last, thereby eliminating the issue altogether?
(it should probably also be noted that the shooter apparently has a holstered pistol while shooting from prone, further negating the argument that "3GN does it" since that would be in violation of the 3GN rules)

http://youtu.be/UTTA7xoar-o

http://youtu.be/xEq29CIutxc

http://youtu.be/AAZZkznrOCM

[Failure2Stop]

I think that goes without saying. You can't fix stupid. You can, however, mitigate the opportunity for stupid. And, I would argue, anyone who is a Match Director, Rule writer/implementer, COF designer, or RO/SO volunteers to take on the responsibility to mitigate stupid to one degree or another.

Which brings up the question at hand, which is whether or not a COF or a set of rules for action competition shooting should require (or even allow, for that matter) holstering on the clock. Even if the event (which I intentionally left vague) didn't fit the parameters of the question, the fact is that the codified rules for the "association" allow/encourage it and other events and stages shot under those rules require/encourage/allow it.

For example, on the stage below, is there a place for the shooter to safely dump the pistol? Does the COF not appear to require the shooter to holster on the clock?

And, perhaps more subjectively, is there any reason the stage could not have been arranged such that the pistol portion was last, thereby eliminating the issue altogether?
(it should probably also be noted that the shooter apparently has a holstered pistol while shooting from prone, further negating the argument that "3GN does it" since that would be in violation of the 3GN rules)

http://youtu.be/UTTA7xoar-o

http://youtu.be/xEq29CIutxc

I can't see the video, work filter still being debugged.

I personally fall on the side of: it isn't necessary if done right, and if done wrong causes injury and stops shooting for the day.
Put a dump point at the change-over point.

[rob_s]

I can't see the video, work filter still being debugged.

The third video, which I added after you posted, shows Stage 5 of the USCA Nationals. I though there was even video somewhere of a handgun popping out of a race holster but I can't find it now. I believe the Noveske page also had video of their shooters having to hold the pistol in the holster while running.

I can't find a COF description now (can't recall if they were posted before the event or not)

For the benefit of others who are un-blocked, here is more from that stage at that match.

http://youtu.be/ulPCOkJp358

http://youtu.be/-0qeBaMNKr8

[SecondsCount]

I have helped RO at quite a few matches as well as fun shoots, etc. and I agree that dumping the pistol is the safest way to keep this type of thing from happening.

Unfortunately not all shooters that attend these events are at the same level and the rules must accommodate those that do not have the experience to handle firearms in an advanced environment.

[John Hearne]

Eeez gun, eeez not safe.

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