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Thread: This is the active shooter conundrum that's going on in my area of NJ right now...

  1. #21
    Site Supporter JodyH's Avatar
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    Feb 2011
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    Columbine, Virginia Tech and Newtown don't scare me as much as Beslan.
    Lockdown might limit the lone spree shooter to a classroom full of victims but turns the entire school over to a team.
    "For a moment he felt good about this. A moment or two later he felt bad about feeling good about it. Then he felt good about feeling bad about feeling good about it and, satisfied, drove on into the night."
    -- Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy --

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by JodyH View Post
    Columbine, Virginia Tech and Newtown don't scare me as much as Beslan.
    Lockdown might limit the lone spree shooter to a classroom full of victims but turns the entire school over to a team.
    A Beslan type event is pretty difficult to defend against, especially at the elementary school level; where a scatter to the 4 corners of the neighborhood is NOT a viable option to the shelter in place strategy.

    IMO the key to these events is time. How do you generate time between the arrival of a threat on site, his/her identification and the subsequent employment of defensive actions. Given today's school designs, our focus on convenience and the incessant wandering of strangers in and out of school buildings on assorted activities this is a VERY difficult thing to implement.

    You'd need to eliminate all the bloody volunteers that stream in and out of schools through out the day and have a truly controlled entry point or points that are monitored by people dedicated to the task. Not some PTA volunteer who is also making copies for little johny's teacher or some secretary who has her hands full with their regular admin duties. My sons school implemented remote locking doors this last year. You know the type. Press buzzer and state name and what not and then get let in. Problem is that once the gate is opened the whole school is now accessible. Gate is manned by a volunteer parent who has no way to verify anything and basically you get buzzed in.

  3. #23
    Hit button too soon... Durned iPhone with reply button just in the wrong spot.

    Entry needs to be limited and verified. If you show up claiming that your jimmy johns dad coming to pick him up, there had better be a jimmy john student and your name better be on file as able to pick up.

    On e entry is gained the visitors should be funneled toward another area where the staff verify ID and then they send for your kid. No need to have strangers roaming the halls looking for class XYZ EVER. This may get staff killed, but it puts numerous barriers between the bad guy and the kids.

    The other thing is that we have designed the schools for convenience. Parking right up front with drop off and pick up lanes. No time to notice the guy with the rifle walking across the open area between the parking lot and the entry point. As soon as someone gets out of their car they can begin blasting away at vital targets.

    The other thing we refuse to do is depart from a cookie cutter solution. What is appropriate for a 6 YO may not be the best thing for the 16 YO. Stop looking for the one size fits all thing and develop appropriate measures based on locations, layouts and maturity level. However, that would depart for the central control model to the allow local customization model that tends to send shivers up the spines of most politicians and their team of liability lawyers.

  4. #24
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    Aug 2011
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    Western Ohio
    Let's turn our schools into Supermaxes. Perfect safety.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha Sierra View Post
    Let's turn our schools into Supermaxes. Perfect safety.
    It's a balancing act between being safe and feeling safe. I went to a school that had a closed perimeter with limited to no parental access aside for dedicated events. I never felt like is was in a supermax facility or any prison facility for that matter. I knew that when I crossed the threshold it was business time and not fart around time. There was a reason why by third grade I was at JR High level in math and science. To be honest I never felt like I was in prison till I got into public schools in Houston. Having to sit will for hours on end with no breaks was torture.

    The education issue aside, the question is what do you want to BE and what realistic threat level do you want to protect against. The I want kids to feel safe idiocy has no place in this.

    We need to realistically evaluate the threat levels that we face and deal with them up front. Run, hide and pray is not dealing with any threat.

  6. #26
    Site Supporter KevinB's Avatar
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    I'd be a shit ton happier if the stupid Gun Free School Zones did not also apply to HR-218/LEOSA.
    Kevin S. Boland
    Director of R&D
    Law Tactical LLC
    www.lawtactical.com
    kevin@lawtactical.com
    407-451-4544




  7. #27
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    Erie County, NY
    Turning every school into a fortress sounds great. So we do that - and the active shooter decides to hit the public library on story day. That becomes a fort?

    Building the Maginot line didn't work. Setting up mini-Maginots at every school will fail in preventing rampages because just as the line was circumvented, other soft targets exist.

    A reasonable measure set may be:

    1. Allowing carry by reasonably competent folk in the schools. You can fight out how to determine that. Maybe it is whether you shoot IDPA or USPSA? That's a joke based on the Sunni-Shitte type competition discussion that rages.

    2. See if we can increase prediction. Prediction stands the chance of generating rights violations with too many false positives but with rampagers - the data seems to indicate that the following might be useful:

    a. Past history of violence
    b. Making pretty specific threats (rampager planners who have been caught before the rampage are usually turned in. It is mostly by young girls or women. The young men are too stupid).
    c. Worshipping and studying Cho, VT, Lanza, Holmes.
    d. Having a hidden arsenal of weapons (guns, bombs). If it's hidden how do you know but if the other indicators light up - finding the cache is bad news.

    I'd prefer to be able to carry than being locked down in a tight space waiting with my ninja I-Pad of death. That's what I told the TX House when I testified for campus carry for the TSRA.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by KevinB View Post
    I'd be a shit ton happier if the stupid Gun Free School Zones did not also apply to HR-218/LEOSA.
    Or other law-abiding citizens who're toting a CCW.

  9. #29
    Site Supporter KevinB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IRISH View Post
    Or other law-abiding citizens who're toting a CCW.
    I can live with that too...

    I know our Sheriff has told deputies they can drop kids off on the way to work in their take home cars -- but since they are not "on duty" yet...
    Kevin S. Boland
    Director of R&D
    Law Tactical LLC
    www.lawtactical.com
    kevin@lawtactical.com
    407-451-4544




  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by KevinB View Post
    I can live with that too...

    I know our Sheriff has told deputies they can drop kids off on the way to work in their take home cars -- but since they are not "on duty" yet...
    I think most of us would agree that "gun-free zones" are anything but when it comes to criminals with bad intentions. In Utah students are permitted to carry concealed with a CCW permit and I can't recall hearing anything bad happening with any law-abiding person there.

    I'm a vet, putting my GI money to work at our local university, and the president of the school here can grant permission for one to carry on campus. He's denied every single person who's applied, including several police officers attending classes. So, you're either a sitting duck or breaking the law...

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