What could/should USPSA do to attract the average CCW holder

[Mr_White]

Just to reinforce that the jersey doesn't mean you shoot well. There was a group there at the GSSF match I shot. I was far enough away that I didn't see the dude's score or time, so I asked him a question about why he shot the near targets first and he said "Because I can point shoot them." After the match looking at the results I was over 28 seconds faster on the final score. Imagine how fast I would've been if I wore my jersey?

I hear you. The GSSF team is fun, and it's also novel that we have a GSSF team.

Jerseys and fancy expensive guns don't make me want to run away, they just make me want to race and see if I can win or keep up. Many skill levels of USPSA competitor like to wear jerseys. Not my problem, and not theirs either. If a person is burdened by what other people wear...they are the one carrying the burden.

Kind of a tangent, but which stage are you talking about where the GSSF jersey guy shot the targets near to far? I am always interested in the persistent differences between how I and some of my competitors deal with the stages in GSSF.

[orionz06]

I have envisioned 'Duty and Carry' Division. It would be an amalgam of Open, Limited, and Production. Production-type guns, perhaps a little more restrictive than current Production rules allow. Mag pouches and holsters don't have to be behind the hip. Concealment or retention gear required. Magazines filled to capacity, with some limit on length of magazine. Lasers, WML, and slide-mounted mini RDS allowed. Minor scoring for everyone.

Sounds great.



I don't see the issue with shirts with sponsors on them. No different than anywhere else where shooters are covered in logos, patches, and pins. Hell, folks do it at a local level because they like a brand.

[PPGMD]

I hear you. The GSSF team is fun, and it's also novel that we have a GSSF team.

Teams seem like a good way to get an agency or such to pay for your GSSF entries. Though without award money or recognition from your peers at the award ceremony being involved I fail to see the point. But then again I view GSSF as a possible money maker.

Personally I have no problem with jerseys. The idea for mine was spawned to make fun of all the jerseys and I was going to put random logos like ACE Bandage and Advil, but after finding out the expense, I just put my logo on it. But until I get sponsors unless I want to put a flag on the sleeve that is the way it is going to stay.

Kind of a tangent, but which stage are you talking about where the GSSF jersey guy shot the targets near to far? I am always interested in the persistent differences between how I and some of my competitors deal with the stages in GSSF.

Glock M, it was setup with a single fixed popper in between the far targets. My first time shooting it, and I wondered why someone that would go to the expense of a jersey would use such a horrible stage plan by needlessly adding two long transitions. To me that is stage planning 101, something I try to get new shooters to think about after their first couple of USPSA matches.

[cclaxton]

No, hit factor scoring provides a good balance between speed and accuracy.

You can still publish hit factor. Just don't use it to score the match.

Why, if the sponsors allow you to pay for your shooting, they are going to want something out of it? Besides which I see almost as many jerseys running around other shooting sports as I see at a USPSA match. Heck I saw a group with jerseys at a GSSF match.

I was just answering the question about how USPSA could attract more CCW shooters. I am a big supporter of vendors at matches. But, it is very intimidating for new/novice shooters.

You can already, you will lose if you do so, but there are no rules prohibited you from doing tactical shooting as long as you stay in the shooting area. Heck you can also shoot outside the shooting area if you wish, but you will get one of the rare USPSA fingers.

No, that is not true. Stages are not designed for use of cover or concealment. They are based on speed and competitive challenge. When I said, "Create opportunities for cover or concealment" I meant changing how stages are built to create cover and concealment and through course design force people to use it. I rarely see this done.

If you aren't a douche that needs a good ego deflating,...

A good coach would never talk like this....again this is the kind of attitude that keeps people away.
It's more like: "You aren't really good enough to shoot in the big league...come back when you're ready."

...there is plenty of coaching available to you at a USPSA match.

Not in my experience. There are nice people and there are some individuals that will help coach newbies. But, Shooters want to shoot and go home and wait for the scores. Unless you have a friend who is willing to help, most competitors are thinking about their stages and not willing to help anyone else.

USPSA is only ego crushing to those that have an opinion of their shooting ability beyond what they can actually do. After seeing how good others are, there are two courses call them gamers and quit, or endeavor to improve you shooting skills. IDPA can be just as ego crushing when you watch the really good master/DM level shooters go through a stage.

The scores are the scores we all deserve.. that is enough ego crushing. There is no need to remind "the unworthy" just how unworthy they really are.
Me, I want to shoot so I have developed a thick skin....The biggest part of coaching is helping competitors gain confidence. That confidence gets affected when we keep reminding people how unworthy they are. I am not saying we should give them a false sense of accomplishment either.
Cody

[nwhpfan]

I have envisioned 'Duty and Carry' Division.

Ok, I was talking about you

I have brought maybe ~8-10 new shooters to USPSA.

And I have RO'd these people - USPSA's responsibiilty ends at encouraging its for members like you to bring them out; which you have done. One of them is hooked and part of the regular crew, others come out 1-2 times per year, some have never come back....

A lot of the complaints in this thread may occur at the local level but don't come from USPSA HQ. You get from USPSA what you want. We are so far beyond "this $h!# will get you killed on the streets" and it's pretty universal competition shooting is good for you. I shoot USPSA, but have shot a number of outlaw 3 gun matches, NRA TPC, outlaw Pistol, etc. Get out there and shoot. Best article ever is the one Origami wrote about his path to USPSA. I'm sure somebody smarter than me can post it again...

[PPGMD]

You can still publish hit factor. Just don't use it to score the match.

Again nope hit factor scoring is one of the reasons that IPSC/USPSA remains a sport that allows the balance between speed and accuracy. Also hit factor scoring isn't difficult to understand, it is points per second. Whoever has the most wins the stage and gets all the points available for the stage for scoring purposes everyone below them gets a percentage based on their hit factor to the winners. You then add up all the stage points to get the winners. Honestly it isn't hard, this was all done by hand before there were computers.

No, that is not true. Stages are not designed for use of cover or concealment. They are based on speed and competitive challenge. When I said, "Create opportunities for cover or concealment" I meant changing how stages are built to create cover and concealment and through course design force people to use it. I rarely see this done.

I don't think you've shot many USPSA matches. As often at least a couple times a match there is a stage that forces you to use cover. It has to be done a lot more strategically by using fault lines.

A good coach would never talk like this....again this is the kind of attitude that keeps people away.
It's more like: "You aren't really good enough to shoot in the big league...come back when you're ready."

Not in my experience. There are nice people and there are some individuals that will help coach newbies. But, Shooters want to shoot and go home and wait for the scores. Unless you have a friend who is willing to help, most competitors are thinking about their stages and not willing to help anyone else.

Actually someone that has met a variety of new shooters will understand. If you can to a USPSA match with an ego the size of the state of Texas, thinking you are a hot shot. You aren't going to get much coaching. If you approach it nicely looking for help people will fall over backward to help you. Unless you yankees are different from us southerners I would expect much the same reception in the north.

As an example I've seen people loan $5,000 open guns, and $200 magazines to people that forgot their stuff. Granted these were established members, but you are still talking about loaning a gun that costs more than a cheap car. And magazines that cost two c-notes that are doing to be dropped onto the group. If a new shooter needs ammo, magazines, or even equipment people will bend of backward.

The scores are the scores we all deserve.. that is enough ego crushing. There is no need to remind "the unworthy" just how unworthy they really are.
Me, I want to shoot so I have developed a thick skin....The biggest part of coaching is helping competitors gain confidence. That confidence gets affected when we keep reminding people how unworthy they are. I am not saying we should give them a false sense of accomplishment either.

I am not saying that we lord it over a person. Simply that some shooters realize how much they don't know about shooting until they come to a match. I know one cop that suggested all his fellow officers attend a USPSA match, to help them understand how little police training has taught them.

Think about this from another perspective. You are a mid-20 year old rookie cop, you are young in shape, overall at the top of your game. And then you go to a USPSA match, and someone like Rob Leatham (30 years older, not in perfect shape, and has physical issues) thoroughly trounces you. Hopefully that knocks your ego down enough that you will start asking "How did that guy get so good?"

[PPGMD]

Oh I just remembered, here is one thing that they can do. Make it easier to find matches.

Have a website where you can put in your zip code and get the nearest matches with dates, websites, and contact information.

Or you can do like the Alabama section does, and put together a Google map:
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UT...3,5.657959&z=8

A list of matches just doesn't do it, as many of the small towns that the matches are hosted in aren't something that someone is going to be able to recognize by name. Take the three USPSA clubs in DFW. They are in Ferris, Maypearl, and Cresson. Only one is a name that anyone would even have a chance to recognize. So if I were looking at a list of matches for the state of Texas I might say "There are no matches in DFW." OTOH a map of a club finder with distance would allow you to see all the local matches.

I like the club finder concept, as if you are near the border your nearest match might be just over the border. Like the Ft Benning/Columbus, GA area your closest club is over the border in Alabama (in fact most of their members are from Columbus that even though Alabama in central time, all matches are scheduled based on eastern time).

[littlejerry]

Oh I just remembered, here is one thing that they can do. Make it easier to find matches.

Have a website where you can put in your zip code and get the nearest matches with dates, websites, and contact information.

Or you can do like the Alabama section does, and put together a Google map:
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UT...3,5.657959&z=8

A list of matches just doesn't do it, as many of the small towns that the matches are hosted in aren't something that someone is going to be able to recognize by name. Take the three USPSA clubs in DFW. They are in Ferris, Maypearl, and Cresson. Only one is a name that anyone would even have a chance to recognize. So if I were looking at a list of matches for the state of Texas I might say "There are no matches in DFW." OTOH a map of a club finder with distance would allow you to see all the local matches.

I like the club finder concept, as if you are near the border your nearest match might be just over the border. Like the Ft Benning/Columbus, GA area your closest club is over the border in Alabama (in fact most of their members are from Columbus that even though Alabama in central time, all matches are scheduled based on eastern time).

This was the main reason why it took me so long to shoot USPSA. All of the matches in Atlanta are held at private clubs outside the city. IDPA was held at public indoor ranges so it was easy to stumble across. Until i went out of my way to find USPSA I never knew it was even around me. Even then I had to navigate through old early 2000s web sites with old info to even find out where matches were held.

Advertising at public ranges would go a long way.

As far as rules changes I don't want any. The sport is great because there are so few rules. And each MD has a lot of latitude in how they design stages. 4 clubs around me run matches and each has a different flair: one is IDPA-esque with low round counts, scenarios, cover, etc. Another is very technical with HARD shots at distance, compromised positions, and challenging no-easy-way stage design. Another club is more"classic" and tries to replicate state and area matches.

[nwhpfan]

This was the main reason why it took me so long to shoot USPSA. All of the matches in Atlanta are held at private clubs outside the city. IDPA was held at public indoor ranges so it was easy to stumble across. Until i went out of my way to find USPSA I never knew it was even around me. Even then I had to navigate through old early 2000s web sites with old info to even find out where matches were held.

Advertising at public ranges would go a long way.
.

So are you talking about how it was 10+ years ago? That doesn't seem relevant to the discussion today. I just went to www.uspsa.com At the top banner is "Find Clubs" and I typed in a zip for Atlanta and pops up half a dozen clubs with the monthly match date and time, contact information etc. I clicked on the links to the first club listed the third statement is new shooters welcome and everything you need to know to just show up and shoot. I did the same for my area and got similar results - along with the email and phone number inviting you to contact the MD with questions.

I really don't know what more USPSA needs to do when it has a national link to clubs, matches, etc. and all the information on how to show up and be a new shooter.

[Jared]

CClaxton,

I'm not picking on you dude, but I honestly wonder what kind of a USPSA club you wandered in to. The MD at the closest club to me is a pretty good Limited shooter. He takes every new shooter that shows up under his wing, and spends his match helping them process everything that's going on. On top of that, he keeps them in a squad with him until they are comfortable and ready to roll without the helping hand. Maybe 2-3 matches. I shot a bunch with him, even after I got to where I didn't need the help anymore, just because I genuinely like shooting with the guy. He's that good with new shooters. I still remember him loaning me a mag pouch my first time out so I would have enough.

I also remember when I finally went up to our local M and introduced myself. We chatted for a few minutes, and when we were getting ready to go our separate ways, he told me if I ever wanted any help, pointers, or anything, just ask. He's got one of those billboard shirts himself. I don't. From talking to him, I honestly didn't get the impression that he cared, or even noticed.

That's the kind of experiences I've had interacting with our local upper level shooters. The most off-putting shooter I ever interacted with was actually a B class dude that thought he was a god. Other than him, I've never had a bad time interacting with any shooters. I chatted up a very young GM at a level II match last year. Like young enough, that it would be very easy for him to have a big head. Guy was one of the nicest young men I've ever met, and a good dude to be on a squad with.

Now that I've typed this, I don't think I've ever spoken with an A, M, or GM that came off as though they had a "God's Gift" complex.