LOL...simple...really? You forgot to mention how Major and Minor are scored differently.Originally Posted by PPGMD
Don't forget to explain points. Then add penalties.
What could be simpler than TIME+(Points Down/2)+penalties?
Time+ also allows people to easily compare themselves across Divisions and Classes.
Cody
That a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defense of a free state;
I posted that rather quickly, and it does come off dismissively. Let me elaborate. There are Super Squad level Grandmasters that shoot USPSA and not IDPA. It is much harder to attain USPSA GM classification than it is IDPA Master classification. I think those facts could be used to draw shooters to USPSA that really do want to see how they stack up. It absolutely is one of the things that drew me.
That doesn't mean I'm standing here trying to put down anything else. If any club close to me ever starts Steel Challenge type matches, I will be there. I even went to a S.A.S.S. match once. I want them all to thrive.
Still, as I said in my original post, the talent pool in USPSA is DEEP. It can be marketed in such a way that it is a major draw for shooters. I think USPSA should take advantage of that.
Most USPSA clubs publish a "Combined Unofficial Results" that shows all Divisions combined. It's really easy to compare across divisions with that.
I don't care what is simpler, if we wanted simple we would be shooting other shooting sports like Steel Challenge or Bianchi. Are two different scales for points is really hard to comprehend? We are talking about people that can discuss ballistic coefficients, stopping power, et al until my eyes bleed.
But having major and minor scoring it gives people a choice. I can shoot single stack with 8 rounds major or 10 rounds with minor. I can so the same with revolver where it is 6 vs 8.
Either way none of this matters, just shoot alphas and you will always get five points.
As far as comparing across divisions, many clubs publish overall results. And for clubs that don't there is a website:
http://combinedresults.info/
Though when we need comparisons we typically look at classifier scores. As that compares you not just with your club but with USPSA as a whole, which is a much better comparison.
The point of this thread is what could be done to USPSA to attract more CCW holder shooters. Simplifying the rules would definitely help. The last time I checked, the USPSA rule book (for handguns only) was 112 pages. The 2014 USPSA Handgun Rules changes is 14 pages. The 2013 USPSA Rules changes was 18 pages. Of course none of that is hard to learn if you spend a lot of time reading it. But 99% of the CCW holders do not and will not do that.
To put this in perspective, the rule book for FNH 3 gun competition (that's THREE guns, not handgun only) is 9 pages.
I have shot USPSA for over 10 years and I still don't know what all the rules are. But at least I can admit that. I have shot with lots of very experienced USPSA shooters who think the rules are not that complicated and that they truly know the rules. But it's always interesting to be in USPSA match with them where there is a close call on penalties/scoring. Often these USPSA Rules Grand Masters will not be able to agree on what is correct. Then they start arguing about rules interpretation and it becomes a contest of who (thinks they) know the rules better. If you are a typical CCW shooter, you basically just want to shoot. You did not show up to get into a rules interpretation contest.
Also, I don't understand the resentment of people who wear jerseys or sponsor shirts. A lot of those "sponsored" guys (and gals) aren't very good, nor do they claim to be. They may just do it to show support for a particular company (with whom they have a personal, not professional, connection). They may also do it just do get a group of people together and have more fun shooting. I have noticed that jersey wearers and "teams" of shooters (who are not the top shooters) usually seem to be happier at the matches than most shooters, and ironically also seem to be much more friendly. Those are good things.
Joe Mamma
You can't compare the rules of a single outlaw match, with the rulebook of a national shooting sport that is trying to homogenize things at clubs all across the nation. And a rule book of similar length in IDPA (yes their page count is less, but they use the standard letter size vs the smaller booklet size of the USPSA rulebook) doesn't deter new shooters.
But how about this, a 10-20 page plain english guide of everything that a new shooter needs to know to start shooting USPSA. Include pictures, and cites of the exact rule in the rule book but it would be clearly labeled as non-authoritative.
Honestly new shooters don't care, about those rules. Does a new shooter need to argue about a foot fault giving a significant advantage thus the per shot penalty is needed? Or the fact that a fence of other obstacle is required to block off shooters from moving through non-shooting areas?I have shot USPSA for over 10 years and I still don't know what all the rules are. But at least I can admit that. I have shot with lots of very experienced USPSA shooters who think the rules are not that complicated and that they truly know the rules. But it's always interesting to be in USPSA match with them where there is a close call on penalties/scoring. Often these USPSA Rules Grand Masters will not be able to agree on what is correct. Then they start arguing about rules interpretation and it becomes a contest of who (thinks they) know the rules better. If you are a typical CCW shooter, you basically just want to shoot. You did not show up to get into a rules interpretation contest.
New shooters only really need to know about equipment divisions, a quick overview of various courses and the classification system, the safety rules, scoring, and the few actual shooting rules like shooting areas, using walls as support and such. They don't need to know about steel calibration, chrono, challenges and other rules that we older shooters will argue about until our eyes bleed.
Hell I don't know the exact wording of 75% of the rules without consulting the rule book.
Duh, yep! Simple!!
You see, it's HIT FACTOR scoring = total points divided by time = very simple. Highest HIT FACTOR wins.
Total points = well,.... total points shot, MINUS any penalties. A MISS is minus 10, in fact, every penalty that I'm aware of is MINUS 10. Still very SIMPLE. It's subtract all penalties, not add, by the way.
So you see, VERY SIMPLE. Points shot - penalties / time = HIT FACTOR.
No way of scoring takes the 3 pillars of shooting into account better than HF scoring--- ACCURACY, POWER, SPEED. Not to argue, but as the foundation of USPSA, I find these three pillars equally suited to IDPA/CCW type endeavors. They should be the cornerstone of any serious shooter.
As you can see, it's pretty simple.
Oh yeah, you brought up major and minor. Here is how the points break down, again pretty simple.
Major A,B,C,D = 5,4,4,2. Minor A,B,C,D = 5,3,3,1
RO's are just calling out letters and score keepers are recording how many. Scoring programs add the points up according to whether the shooter is shooting major or minor. Again, pretty simple.
Comparing across divisions is pretty simple also, PRACTISCORE, which is the cats meow, will basically let you analyze the match in many different ways. Also as mentioned, there is another website which lists combined.
USPSA offers many different divisions so as to include almost every gun owner. You are not going to the match competing against everyone. You are just competing against the people shooting the same type of gun you are shooting. Pretty cool, and again, pretty easy concept.
I think you absolutely CAN compare FNH rules to USPSA rules. 3gun has been taking off. Many matches out west are sold out within hours of being listed. And most of these clubs are running FNH rules. The FNH rules are not a lot different than USPSA rules, either. They just simplified it and removed a lot of the if this, then that, if that, then this language. Also, they list the Division and equipment rules, and they are done. No long equipment related listings. York IWLA has dumped USPSA membership and just runs FNH rules and they add divisions for pistol, such as Limited, Production, Open, etc and use the same rules and the same stages.
And,......hold for it.......................
.
.
.
.
.
They use TIME+ Scoring!!!!
Cody
That a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defense of a free state;
Those rules are so simple, that must be why at least once a winner has had to come back and say "Yeah I looked at the rules, my gun was illegal."
Most of USPSA rules came from shooting for 30 years, each rule was proceeded by someone gaming things and they had to close a loophole. I can also be reasonably sure that I can go to any USPSA match in the nation and be run under the same understanding of the rule book.
Also I checked on York, in reality they've gone multigun only. They simply have a pistol only option. And it is hilarious that they still vet shooters by the fact that they have a USPSA classification.
Seriously get over your time plus scoring fetish, it ain't happening. Just like IDPA is never going to do away with the stupid fishing vests.And,......hold for it.......................
They use TIME+ Scoring!!!!
Hit factor is one of the core tenets of USPSA. It is what gives people the option of shooting a big caliber, or a small caliber. 40 caliber limited guns are virtually unheard of in 3 gun, and there is option in heavy metal to run a lower caliber in exchange for a bigger magazine. Yes it is slightly harder to calculate than time plus, but it isn't that difficult to do.
This is exactly the problem. It's simple once you know it well. And the fact that you and many other USPSA types don't understand that perspective is a bigger problem (in the context of bringing more new typical CCW holder shooters).
If I give you score sheets for 15 shooters for a 8 stage USPSA match, and give you a calculator and pen (no computer scoring program), how long do you think it would take you to figure out all their scores? If I gave you score sheets (for the same 15 shooters at an 8 stage match) for some other type of new-shooter friendly match (let's even say it's even a "complicated" FN 3 gun match), it would probably take a fraction of the time. That's because USPSA scoring is much more complicated. Think of how simple scoring is for a GSSF match.
I don't think USPSA will ever get rid of their scoring system, and I am not saying they should. But I think it is one of the the things that keeps it from being more popular.
That would be a great idea.
You and I see things differently here. I think new shooters DO care about those rules and a lot of others. I do agree with you that new shooters SHOULD NOT care about a lot of rules. But they do. It's analogous to how they care about having competitive equipment (gun, holster, mag holders, etc.) even though they shouldn't.
We all say "just be safe" to new shooters, and don't worry about scores/performance, and we mean it. They all say "I just want to be safe." But they really also want to do well, and that means understanding the rules, scoring, etc.
Joe Mamma
Reply With Quote