The real rub is that none of the gun games are targeted for the average CCW holder. The "average" CCW holder is carrying an LCP in his pocket regardless of what he tells his buddies on Glocktalk. The real message we should be wondering about is how should USPSA go about attracting shooters to their organization whose primary focus is concealed carry. Essentially, more guys like Gabe.
I would like to see IDPA adopt the BUG division for every match for this reason. Let them run lasers and lights, too. In my experience lasers don't fix grip and trigger control issues. We just had a BUG match at Thurmont, and people brought out their guns with lasers and lights. I see no problem with that.Originally Posted by caleb
Cody
That a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defense of a free state;
The average CCW holder is carrying his LCP. But he can be convinced to do better than that if he can get his foot in the door.
It's like autocross vs road racing. Autocross encourages you to bring your street car, on your street tires, and just go. And it's possible to do so and have a fun time. Once you start having fun, you realize that maybe your 20" rims with 1" of sidewall aren't ideal, or that you'd like some stickier tires. I *never* would have cared about tires until I actually started racing. And now I really want to try a track day.. but you really shouldn't go out for a track day in your idiot ricer with 1" sidewalls.
Really the problem guns games have is the giant pissing match. There should be an organized push - "Come to steel to have fun with just your gun and get used to shooting faster! Come to IDPA to get comfortable moving and reloading! Come to USPSA, too, once you're really invested." It should be a natural progression, with people shooting both and encouraging people to shoot both. Instead all I ever hear from USPSA guys is bitching about the dropping loaded magazine rules in IDPA. Which a novice doesn't and shouldn't care about -- it only annoys them because it's different from what they do in USPSA.
I know that's what you've been advocating on your blog for years -- but it's not really the feel you get from the organizations.
+1
Cody
That a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defense of a free state;
And all I hear from many IDPA guys is about how USPSA is full of race guns, the enmity between the sports isn't just one way. If you try to educate them that the same guns that are competitive in SSP are competitive in production, and that ESP guns aren't half bad Limited guns, they will totally ignore you.
Until that enmity stops, I don't think it is in a USPSA shooter's best interests to push shooters into IDPA, if the goal is to grow USPSA.
I don't know why CCW keeps coming up as the target audience. I think USPSA could probably attract more golfers and motocross guys, they're used to spending all day competing, spending money on equipment, and will understand and be attracted to the (IMO) well thought out classification system in USPSA.
What's interesting is that the free style nature of the game allows people to overthink their stage strategy to the point that they crash and burn with it (not sure if that's what you mean by overthink). I've seen several people who really try to "game" a stage have it blow up in their face - I've also seen some people "game" a stage and really do well with it by being able to eliminate 1 or 2 positions or reloads and make significant gains on someone by thinking outside the normal shoot 8, reload and move shoot 8
Sorry, I agree 100% that IDPA shooters are at fault with this as well. I didn't mean to take sides. But the question of the thread was "how can USPSA attract average CCW holder" -- IDPA is already doing it. What can USPSA do? Go to IDPA matches and have fun, and recruit people. :P And let the new guys know that it's not all race guns.
You know I've actually seen that. I was shooting a match with Frank Garcia, he gamed the stage really well and I agree that it was a fantastic stage plan. But it was running on the ragged edge, only make up shots would result in a standing slide lock reload which screws up the rest of his plan as he had planned it based on always have 10+1. Of course he had a make up shot crashed and burned resulting in second place overall. Another shooter in our squad decided to use Frank's plan, and it worked well for him.
PPG, I think you have set up an argument against supporting IDPA simply based on *some* IDPA shooters who may have said/written something bad about race guns and USPSA. At the clubs I attend no one puts USPSA down because of race guns....no one. They do say that they can't afford to shoot a race gun, but everyone is aware of Production Division. But it's not just the race gun, it's the belt, the speed mag holders, etc. I shoot with my regular Instructor Belt and clip on mag holders and I tell people that is perfectly fine for Production. I never hear negative comments about USPSA...just questions about how it is different.
I have consistently supported IDPA and USPSA in this forum and my experience is that most IDPA shooters say neutral or positive things about USPSA. But, I don't hear the same supportive statements from USPSA shooters. I hear how much better USPSA is...I hear complaints about dropping loaded mags...I hear making fun of vests....I even hear making fun of cover...I hear IDPA shooters are so inferior to USPSA shooters. I hear this ALL THE TIME, including in this forum.
If I took the same attitude you did, then I would never recommend USPSA because they don't show any respect for IDPA. But, I believe in modelling the behavior you want from others. So, I will continue to support USPSA as a sport and ask the USPSA shooters do the same for IDPA. That benefits us both.
Cody
That a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defense of a free state;
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