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  1. #1
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Dagobah

    Poor situational awareness, 2 bad guys and "Where's my gun?"

    A recent incident involving a male attacked by 2 bad guys at a gas station, video below. Poor situational awareness, he turns his back to BG 1 several times, and his weapon was in his vehicle at the time rather than on his body. In my opinion he was very lucky to come out of this incident unscathed.

    He discusses the incident in this thread, I have not read it. One suggestion I have for people involved in an "incident" is not to post their thoughts, feelings or anything else concerning the matter online unless you want it used against you in a court of law. I understand the need to vent, seek advice from like minded people and just blow off steam about the ordeal but do yourself a favor and STFU unless you like attorney's fees.

    Video here: http://www.whiotv.com/video/28315602/index.html

    I think there are a few good lessons here and most will be obvious to the vast majority of members here, please discuss. I apologize for starting a thread and not being able to participate in it today but it's time for boating, beers & bikinis! I love summer time!

  2. #2
    STAFF
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Virginia
    The overwhelming majority of people carrying a gun for self defense would do well to sell one of their guns (because damn near everyone owns more than one) and use the money to buy tuition to a class containing SouthNarc's Managing Unknown Contacts presentation. He's even put it on a DVD you can buy from Shivworks' website.

    Being able to shoot well is a part of self defense...not the whole. Learning how criminals operate, learning to spot the warning signs of an impending attack, and knowing how to avoid placing yourself in a vulnerable position in the first place should be the focus of a deliberate effort to build knowledge and skill for every individual, but especially those who have a firearm for the purpose of self defense. The fundamental truth about criminals is that the majority of them are ambush predators looking for easy prey. There are some very basic but very effective things you can do to A. avoid the ambush and B. communicate to the bad guy that he's trying to tangle with somebody who has big, sharp fangs. The combination of that has a tendency to make most bad guys decide that they'd probably be better off selecting another target.

    Being the best shot in the world is great. Having a huge gun collection is great.

    ...but it's not much practical good if you don't know how to read the world around you to see a bad guy sizing you up for an attack. People often talk about SHTF on gun boards. I have news, folks: SHTF doesn't mean some sort of zombie apocalypse or total breakdown of social order. It means some hammerhead(s) out there smoking a rock and then deciding that he's going to come after you and your family to get what he wants. The skill to shoot that guy in the face is certainly a wonderful asset on it's own, but it will work best for you when paired with the situational awareness and street smarts necessary to spot an attack before it gets to the point where there's a guy punching your face in.

  3. #3
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Colorado Springs
    Quote Originally Posted by TCinVA View Post
    The overwhelming majority of people carrying a gun for self defense would do well to sell one of their guns (because damn near everyone owns more than one) and use the money to buy tuition to a class containing SouthNarc's Managing Unknown Contacts presentation. He's even put it on a DVD you can buy from Shivworks' website.
    Found some of that presentation here. SouthNarc, if this stuff is close-hold or copyrighted, I apologize. It was the first result in a Google search. Good stuff, though.
    Praise be to the LORD my Rock,
    who trains my hands for war,
    my fingers for battle.
    -Psalm 144:1

  4. #4
    Site Supporter
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Albuquerque, NM
    Quote Originally Posted by TCinVA View Post
    The overwhelming majority of people carrying a gun for self defense would do well to sell one of their guns (because damn near everyone owns more than one) and use the money to buy tuition to a class containing SouthNarc's Managing Unknown Contacts presentation. He's even put it on a DVD you can buy from Shivworks' website.

    Being able to shoot well is a part of self defense...not the whole. Learning how criminals operate, learning to spot the warning signs of an impending attack, and knowing how to avoid placing yourself in a vulnerable position in the first place should be the focus of a deliberate effort to build knowledge and skill for every individual, but especially those who have a firearm for the purpose of self defense. The fundamental truth about criminals is that the majority of them are ambush predators looking for easy prey. There are some very basic but very effective things you can do to A. avoid the ambush and B. communicate to the bad guy that he's trying to tangle with somebody who has big, sharp fangs. The combination of that has a tendency to make most bad guys decide that they'd probably be better off selecting another target.

    Being the best shot in the world is great. Having a huge gun collection is great.

    ...but it's not much practical good if you don't know how to read the world around you to see a bad guy sizing you up for an attack. People often talk about SHTF on gun boards. I have news, folks: SHTF doesn't mean some sort of zombie apocalypse or total breakdown of social order. It means some hammerhead(s) out there smoking a rock and then deciding that he's going to come after you and your family to get what he wants. The skill to shoot that guy in the face is certainly a wonderful asset on it's own, but it will work best for you when paired with the situational awareness and street smarts necessary to spot an attack before it gets to the point where there's a guy punching your face in.
    As usual eloquently said and spot on. The best classes I have taken related to self defense have been non firearms. The lessons I have learned have no doubt avoided potential situations.

  5. #5
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Utah, USA
    Thanks for posting IRISH.

    TCinVA has a valid point about attending other classes besides just firearm training. This last spring I took a two day class that was intended to be a "Defensive Knife Class" but turned out to be so much more. We didn't even touch knives on the first day but learned a ton of basic martial art skills as well as how to handle certain scenarios when things get really close. The second day was an eye opener on how things can go wrong quick and actions to defend or evade.

    I know the term gets abused but there should be more than one tool in the toolbox for these situations.
    -Seconds Count. Misses Don't-

  6. #6
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Where I hang my hat is my home, at the moment.
    Interesting thread and foregoing links. Very good material for study and discussion.

    The best violent confrontation that anyone will ever be in (off of a military battlefield) is the one that does not happen. It matters not, weather you are a LEO or a civilian. Deadly force incidents in current USA society tend to be a lot of trouble with the legal system, that most sane persons would prefer to avoid. I speak from experiences of myself and close associates over more than a 50 years time span.

    The only thing that is more deficient than most persons' combat handgun use skills is the situation awareness of most civilians. The video of the you man at the Dayton, OH gas station is a good example, and not likely that unusual. Probably typical. He did just about every thing wrong, except shoot one of his assailants. Had he been alert and prepared, the shooting would likely not have been necessary.

    I tell all of my students that I am paranoid. Paranoia has saved my "donkey" (and the "donkeys" of several close associates) on numerous occasions. I was a Boy Scout; and internalized their motto to: "Be Prepared". Somewhere, along the journey of life, I managed to become an aircraft pilot. I was trained and drilled to expect the unexpected. If you have the bad fortune to experience a total engine power failure, you are returning to the earth's surface. If you are proficient in judging glide distances and in making no power landings on unpaved surfaces; you have a lot better chance of walking away from a forced landing, unhurt.

    I tell all of my students that distance (in a situation that has the potential to turn violent) is your friend; and that you should try to maintain a lot of it, even if doing so means running away, assuming that there is no one with you who can not flee with you. Standing and arguing with a potential attacker is not smart.

    I tell my students that there are no rules that always apply to every violent (or potentially violent) situation other than "stay alert" and "do not hesitate when you need to strike". There is a lot more meaning to these two foregoing concepts than their total of ten words convey at face value.

    I tell my students that almost all predators (beast and human) prefer unaware, weak looking, easy victims; because attacking alert, strong, victims is more difficult, and can be dangerous. Therefore, one is often wise to have a "street face" that communicates that "you do not want to even think about messing with me".

    As to the specific gas station incident of this thread, I always remove my keys and usually lock my door when I get out to fuel. I am always armed with a concealed handgun. I am always looking around for potential threats. If approached, I am usually civil but not friendly; and always prepared to fight or flee. Fleeing safely is usually preferable to fighting.

  7. #7
    ECQC was the most relevant training that I've ever participated in. The situation in the video was most certainly covered in the MUC block.
    Protective Shooting Concepts
    www.protectiveshootingconcepts.com
    Based out of Western Pennsylvania

  8. #8
    Site Supporter
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Savannah, GA
    Quote Originally Posted by TCinVA View Post
    The overwhelming majority of people carrying a gun for self defense would do well to sell one of their guns (because damn near everyone owns more than one) and use the money to buy tuition to a class containing SouthNarc's Managing Unknown Contacts presentation. He's even put it on a DVD you can buy from Shivworks' website.
    I agree with everything you said in your post but I went to the Shivworks website and could not find that video. Is it still for sale? do you have a link to the page?

    Thanks

  9. #9
    But the key point is, if you decide to carry a gun for self-defense, then carry the damn gun and don't stash it "unsecured" in a vehicle console. If anybody isn't familiar with Dayton and Montgomery county in general, then be warned, it's a dive.

  10. #10
    Anti-dentite
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Northern VA
    The Facebook thread where the perp that wasn't shot promised retribution was comical.........

 

 

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