SMEs sound off on position Sul, please...

[BaiHu]

I have met various instructors and LEOs who are all over the map with their understanding of Sul. Some don't even have the history right, but they have plenty of tacticool reasoning to impress upon me as to its virtues.

This site gave me the ability to at least call BS on people who were peddling something they seemingly knew nothing about: http://www.bluesheepdog.com/2013/01/...raining-video/

Then SeanM mentioned this on this thread (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.p...ng+technique):

Except by the OP's description, that is not "High Ready". That is some mall ninja bullshit adaptation of a technique developed by TEES Brazil for a specific set of conditions, with a specific group of people, who had specific gunhandling issues, and has been bastardized, misunderstood, and has infiltrated most low rent (ignorant) instructor's curriculum.

The highlighted piece that Sean wrote is where I'd like to start. The only clear understanding I have of Sul being relevant to me, at this moment in time, is that it is a good retention position if I'm working around family/no shoots that are very close to me.

Just so there is no misunderstanding of my points:

1. I don't know jack about Sul other than what suspect people have told me, PF crew and the aforementioned site that gave me an historic overview.
2. I would like to better understand it's uses and why it is or isn't relevant to me; a guy in NJ who can't carry....yet.
3. If this is a discussion that is best taken on the range with an SME, then I'm okay with that as being the answer.

Thanks in advance.

[Tom Givens]

Alan Brosnan of TEES came up with SUL while working with Brazilian police both in training and on actual operations in the slums of Brazilian big cities. I have known Alan since 1990, and he did a classroom presentation on the history, development and intended use of Sul at one of the Tactical Conferences a few years ago. I have also trained with Alan at the old TEES facility where we were taught the correct application of Sul in the shoot-houses there.

Sul is NOT intended as a ready position for holding or challenging a potential target. It's primary use is as a "movement to contact" position when several persons acting together are negotiating narrow, trash filled, obstructed hallways and doorways. If two men enter a doorway one on top of the other, Sul allows them to have guns in hand without muzzling each others' heads or lower torso. That is all it is intended to do.

Think in terms of Ken Hackathorn's famous Snake Drill. I have used Sul in that drill to weave in and out of the stack without muzzling anyone.

Other purported uses for Sul are the product of active imaginations, or people trying to appear to be knowledgeable without the requisite training/experience.

[BaiHu]

Thank you for that and I'm glad I've gleaned enough information from all of you to know when I smell BS. What is your opinion of the shoulders up and elbows flared vs relaxed shoulders and elbows back? It seems the former is a misconception, but I'm in no place to verify.

[backtrail540]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cq-a...w1t0FGSzaGce1w

Steve Fisher of Sentinel Concepts recently posted this link on his facebook page in relation to the subject.

[HopetonBrown]

I posted this in another thread, but here's Max Joseph, co-creator of SUL explaining it.

[TCinVA]

By no means an SME, but I've been taught SUL by Ken Hackathorn and a couple of other knowledgeable folks and I'd summarize it thusly:

SUL means south. It's nothing more than a means of aiming the muzzle of the gun down at the ground for those occasions when it may be required to move from A to B with a gun in your hand without muzzling someone. This becomes rather important if you're part of a group of people who have to go hunt bad guys in structures in the dark. It's not really a ready position or fighting system or anything like that...it's just a quick, convenient way to teach people how to move around with a handgun without violating any major safety rules.

[BillP]

To the OP's question (why it is or is not relevant to you), sul is merely a means of safely moving with a handgun while safely handling it.

I don't know your situation, so I can't say why it's relevant or not for you. For me, I will use it at times in work environs (normally when static, waiting for something) but I will not at home.

At home I have a wonderful, but unpredictable toddler who loves to get under foot and doesn't take direction too well just yet. She is below muzzle level for me, so I only use muzzle-up at home. I am the tallest one in my house and it works well for me, based on my needs.

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[Mr_White]

What is your opinion of the shoulders up and elbows flared vs relaxed shoulders and elbows back? It seems the former is a misconception, but I'm in no place to verify.

Without regard to what is consistent with the original SUL position, there are a couple of subtle differences between those two variations.

When the position is taught to be used as a muzzle-averted ready position while moving in tight structures/spaces, having the elbow flared high and out can lead to banging that elbow on things, so one might do well to tuck the elbow.

When the position is taught to be used simply as a muzzle-averted ready position, without regard to moving in tight structures/spaces, having the elbow flared high and out can help keep the muzzle buried straight down.

Both positions are fatiguing to either the shoulder or wrist, or both. With the elbow flared high and out, fatigue concentrates in the shoulder. With the elbow tucked and the wrist sharply bent, fatigue concentrates in the wrist. If a person straightens their wrist to relieve the fatigue, the muzzle is no longer buried. Flowing between the two variations, and raising/lowering the height of the gun relative to the torso, can mitigate the fatigue. But if the goal is burying the muzzle straight down, you can't have the elbow low and tucked position combined with a straight wrist or the muzzle won't stay buried.

[Surf]

I learned position SUL many years ago from an instructor who also learned the technique direct from the source. We utilize and teach it exactly as denoted by Josephs video posted and indeed for myself it has been a matter of argument with other instructors over the years who have incorrectly used or taught the technique. Our agency adopted the NRA taught "Safety Circle" when heavily committing new instructors to the NRALE programs but our unit never adopted it and always ran with the SUL. Fortunately recent influence from within my unit has brought the SUL more forefront within the agency and I am teaching the technique as a part of a greater curriculum 4 days per week with 40 students weekly. My counterparts are doing the same on a weekly basis.

The only thing I don't care for in the video is the old school tank turret on the scan / assess. Don't get me wrong as I don't like the epileptic head shake without any seeming rhyme or reason that you see many people doing wrong, but I do believe in keeping the weapon centerline of the torso and letting our head and eyes work independent of muzzle orientation. But that is perhaps another topic.

[BaiHu]

Thank you all for the clarifications.

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