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Thread: NBC News report on police firefights during manhunt for Boston bombing suspects

  1. #1

    NBC News report on police firefights during manhunt for Boston bombing suspects

    http://bearingarms.com/nbc-news-poli...-undertrained/

    Bearing Arms did an article on the NBC news report of the police firefights during the manhunt for the Boston Marathon bombing suspects.

    From the article:

    In a stunning in-depth report from NBC News, the two gunfights that resulted in the apprehension of the Boston Marathon bombers is heavily criticized for exceedingly poor command and control and reckless gunfire.

    The report, entitled Too Many Guns: How Shootout With Bombing Suspects Spiraled into Chaos, shows that the initial shootout in which Tamerlan Tsarnaev was eventually killed was almost a circular firing squad, as on-duty and off-duty officers, some in uniform and some in street clothes, arrived on the scene from multiple directions and began shooting no only at the Tsarnaev brothers, but each other:

    In effect, the suspects ended up at the center of a ring of cops on Laurel Street between Dexter and School streets during the 20-minute firefight, and the bullets that were fired at them often hit near the officers on the other side.

    “Certainly not a good idea,” said Davis. “They see somebody shooting, so they fire at them. That’s their training.”


    More than a dozen officers suffered minor injuries during the mayhem, but none was believed to have been wounded by the suspects. The only serious wound was suffered by Richard Donohue, a transit cop with the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority, who was hit in the groin by a police bullet and began to bleed profusely.

    The exact number of bullets fired y the Tsarnaev’s—who had just one handgun—may have totaled less than ten rounds. The responding police fired at least 100 rounds that authorities admit during this shootout, but the reality is that a much higher number of shots fired is probable.

    Presuming that Boston-area officers that participated in the shootout were likely armed with .40 S&W Glock 22s or similar handguns featuring 15-round magazines and one round in the chamber, and that officers typically carry at least two spare magazines, each officer was carrying 46 rounds of ammunition. Many officers expended most or all of their ammunition during the shootout, and there were a minimum of 12 officers on the scene because, we know that many were wounded.

    Presuming that there were just these dozen officers on the scene—and there were likely twice that many—a conservative estimate that 400 rounds were fired at the Tsarnaevs from every possible angle on this crowded city street lined with homes is entirely reasonable. Is is plausible that if there were two dozen officers were involved, and averaged firing two magazines each, that 720 rounds were expended.

    It was a nightmare of poor command and control and police militarization that would go on for the next 18 hours. Citizens were forced from their homes at gunpoint under the threat of being shot with automatic weapons as SWAT officers conducting warrantless searches.


    It was finally up to a citizen to locate Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, hiding in a boat on a piece of property that heavily-armed officers had already searched. Agents and officers from state, federal, and local agencies swarmed the site, jockeying for position, and then all hell broke loose yet again when Tsarnaev used a fishing gaffe to lift the edge of the tarp over the boat in order to look out.

    But one of the snipers on the roof saw the object and began shooting. It sparked a round of what is known as “contagious fire,” where other officers with their fingers on the trigger began peppering the boat with bullets.

    The commander began shouting for the officers to cease fire, but the fusillade went on for 10 seconds. Hundreds of rounds were expended.


    Even as an LEO, I am at a complete loss to describe this as anything other than a clusterkitten. After the advances in active shooter/rapid deployment training in recent years, this is what happens during the highest profile manhunt in recent history? Heaven help us all....

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by SweetScienceOfShooting View Post
    http://bearingarms.com/nbc-news-poli...-undertrained/

    Bearing Arms did an article on the NBC news report of the police firefights during the manhunt for the Boston Marathon bombing suspects.

    From the article:





    Even as an LEO, I am at a complete loss to describe this as anything other than a clusterkitten. After the advances in active shooter/rapid deployment training in recent years, this is what happens during the highest profile manhunt in recent history? Heaven help us all....
    In all fairness, they're LEO's, not frontline military .Maybe I'm just the token ignorant civilian here, but IMO it's a reach to expect people trained in arrest and apprehension of suspects to suddenly adopt and execute squad level frontline military assault tactics , in the dark, and on the fly.

    What's the solution here? Hand out NVGs at Roll Call?
    The Minority Marksman.
    "When you meet a swordsman, draw your sword: Do not recite poetry to one who is not a poet."
    -a Ch'an Buddhist axiom.

  3. #3
    In all fairness, they're LEO going after an untrained teenager. Imagine if it were a trained adversary.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by GardoneVT View Post
    In all fairness, they're LEO's, not frontline military
    You wouldn't know that by looking at them

    https://images.search.yahoo.com/sear...47&fr2=piv-web

  5. #5
    I am often heavily critical of these things. The problem can be laid in one place......Police and Municipal Executive Management. When you give people minimal training, cross your fingers and hope for the best as a management principle, this is what happens. The same folks who are not making firearms training a priority on the top end are the first to wash their hands of responsibilities when things go bad. I lived the world where everything I did to improve training was fought at the higher levels and by the city executives. My program was dismantled within months of me retiring. Trust me, when you document that shooting performance of hitting at 17% is unacceptable in writing, you become an enemy of the state. I guarantee that many in that area have been pounding their head on the wall for years trying to improve L/E training. The facts are simple, "training" is totally geared toward the lowest common denominator officer to "get them to pass" (top leadership is often those LCD shooters themselves and often relatively inexperienced at actual police work), and an emphasis on high level discretionary shooting with heavy accuracy standards is not the priority because it takes A. Time, B. Money, C. Will, D. Leadership (NOT supervision), E. dedicated personnel, F. Community support for well trained LE. Basically............unicorns in police world.
    Just a Hairy Special Snowflake supply clerk with no field experience, shooting an Asymetric carbine as a Try Hard. Snarky and easily butt hurt. Favorite animal is the Cape Buffalo....likely indicative of a personality disorder.
    "If I had a grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton".

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha Sierra View Post
    You wouldn't know that by looking at them

    https://images.search.yahoo.com/sear...47&fr2=piv-web
    No kidding.

    A whole bunch of federally-funded toys in those photos, eh?

    .

  7. #7
    Member JHC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha Sierra View Post
    You wouldn't know that by looking at them

    https://images.search.yahoo.com/sear...47&fr2=piv-web
    Equipment is the easy part I suppose.
    “Remember, being healthy is basically just dying as slowly as possible,” Ricky Gervais

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by nyeti View Post
    I am often heavily critical of these things. The problem can be laid in one place......Police and Municipal Executive Management. When you give people minimal training, cross your fingers and hope for the best as a management principle, this is what happens. The same folks who are not making firearms training a priority on the top end are the first to wash their hands of responsibilities when things go bad. I lived the world where everything I did to improve training was fought at the higher levels and by the city executives. My program was dismantled within months of me retiring. Trust me, when you document that shooting performance of hitting at 17% is unacceptable in writing, you become an enemy of the state. I guarantee that many in that area have been pounding their head on the wall for years trying to improve L/E training. The facts are simple, "training" is totally geared toward the lowest common denominator officer to "get them to pass" (top leadership is often those LCD shooters themselves and often relatively inexperienced at actual police work), and an emphasis on high level discretionary shooting with heavy accuracy standards is not the priority because it takes A. Time, B. Money, C. Will, D. Leadership (NOT supervision), E. dedicated personnel, F. Community support for well trained LE. Basically............unicorns in police world.
    Well stated. And the odds are that at least SOME of those guys were on a team that trains, has procedures down pat, and a modicum of discipline.

    Imagine how a "team" from Spider Crotch, BFE, that has the toys but not the training/experience, is going to react.

    I gotta quit dwelling on this stuff. I'm done, out of it, retired, etc.; but it could affect me tonight.

    Definitely getting scary out there… on both sides of the coin.

    .

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by LSP972 View Post
    Well stated. And the odds are that at least SOME of those guys were on a team that trains, has procedures down pat, and a modicum of discipline.

    Imagine how a "team" from Spider Crotch, BFE, that has the toys but not the training/experience, is going to react.

    I gotta quit dwelling on this stuff. I'm done, out of it, retired, etc.; but it could affect me tonight.

    Definitely getting scary out there… on both sides of the coin.

    .
    I keep telling myself that I don't care anymore..........but I do. I honestly feel really bad for the boots out there who just don't know what they don't know, and the supervision who does know, and just don't care.
    Just a Hairy Special Snowflake supply clerk with no field experience, shooting an Asymetric carbine as a Try Hard. Snarky and easily butt hurt. Favorite animal is the Cape Buffalo....likely indicative of a personality disorder.
    "If I had a grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton".

  10. #10
    New Member BLR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyeti View Post
    I keep telling myself that I don't care anymore..........but I do. I honestly feel really bad for the boots out there who just don't know what they don't know, and the supervision who does know, and just don't care.
    Dude, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but that is epidemic throughout the world. And maybe it's my blooming cynicism, but I'm convinced no one wants to know.

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