Thank you for these suggestions. Do these .223 loads run well in rifles that are optimized for 5.56? Do they use sealed primers and annealed cases? Am i correct to also assume that these are much more precise in the marksmanship department then the 193/855s?Originally Posted by Chuck Haggard
The Winchester ranger is LE ammo and can be trusted to go bang. I use this round for my SD load out as I don't feel I need a barrier blind load. I'll have to check when I get home to see if they are sealed and annealed but off the top of my head I'd say they are.
The PRVI has also been a decent load for me. It hasn't been the tack driver than Black Hills has been, but shoots more accurately than m993 or m855.
As far as working out of a 556 rifle the general rule of thumb is that a 556 rifle can shoot 223 but a 223 rifle shouldn't shoot 556. I've shot about 200 of the Ranger and 300 of the Prvi though everything from a mini14 to both carbine, piston, and rifle length ARs and haven't had any issues cycling
Link to DocGKR's information including recommended loads
The Winchester 64 PSP is a reasonably priced load. I think Walmart carries the plain wrapper hunting version.
http://www.ammunitiondepot.com/Winch...-p/ra223r2.htm
-Seconds Count. Misses Don't-
Which, in turn, takes how long to heal, or results in how much more quickly the assailant would be incapacitated?
I've heard that the Federal Fusion .223 62gr is good to go. They shoot well from my Colt 16" 1:7 barrel. And they are commonly available at Academy as a hunting load, and online for only $0.89 per round.
As has been mentioned elsewhere, these are very similar to Gold Dots, and, surprisingly to me, apparently have flash reducing agents in them. I shot a few magazines out of an 11.5 barrel at dusk several years ago; muzzle flash was neglible.
I would look at Doc's work first, but I found this thread to contain some very interesting info that you might find helpful:
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread....ting-ammo-quot
"I don't want to be lorded over by a Bible thumping theocrat any more than a frappa-lappa-mocha chino sipping hoplophobic statist."-FredM
Thanks for sharing!
First of all, thanks everybody for sharing I really appreciate the insights and opinions shared here.
Thank you for those, I'll look through those cartridges, and I'll keep that in mind about M193. I feel a lot better about the M193 that I own now.
Thank you for the heads up, I'll give Prvi a look too in my search.
I'll have to check them out. Thanks!
I would say a lot more tissue damage is done by a V-Max round in the first 1-4'' of penetration than M193, that may not fragment or even begin to fragment in those ranges.
View the below, it'll show you the wound channel of a V-Max through a rifle.
It's not the most scientific and contained test, but it is a data point. Take it for what it's worth.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCqmclsRQmM
Now, let's look at some ballistics of say a MK 262 Mod 1.
Again, not the most scientific, but it is ballistic gelatin and does give us some info.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF6v34gC2Ag
ETA: This bullet travels about 6'' in this particular instance before it begins to fragment. This bullet may've experienced the same thing as the M193 in the instance I cited earlier posted by Doc Roberts. Where, it may've been a good round, but, it went through without doing much tissue damage except punching a hole in someone.
I feel like it's necessary to state this point currently. Shot placement is always the deciding factor in regards to shooting. However, unfortunately not all of us can always get a bullet where we want to go on the first shot and under pressure. I also, since this is kind of going to a rudimentary level of discussion want to point out some things.
If we could, then I'd just pickup a .22 LR derringer and say "Oh... I'll just shoot any intruder through the retina if they threaten me. I don't need more than 2 bullets. I carry the second one because the first might misfire."
So, knowing that, I realize the size of the brain that you need to hit is about the size of a 3x5 card (as many here agree, referencing the FAST test). So, we look at Human anatomy, what systems keep a person a threat? Well, the ability to make decisions, coordinate their limbs, etc. Namely, their brain. So ideally, disable the brain.
If that's not an option, the next best target are the systems that support the brain. Namely, your lungs and your heart. The lungs bring oxygen into your body, and your heart pumps blood carrying oxygen to your brain. You may not know this, but people pretty much always pass from not having enough oxygen. At an old age, their lungs or heart are too weak and they fail. At that point, the body shuts down, because the brain is incapacitated.
So, I may not get always be able to get a headshot, but I could possibly get a torso shot. Now, based off that fact, let's examine a thought process. If I can't end the functionality of the brain, then perhaps I can end the functionality of their lungs or heart. An AR-15 shoots a .223 caliber bullet, which isn't huge in width. So, if I hit a heart, and it's not fragment or tumbling, it may damage one of the valves or it may stop the heart. Or, if I hit a lung, I may perhaps puncture one.
But, ideally I could get a projectile that fragments, or expands and perhaps destroys more of the heart or collapses a lung entirely. Possibly, they may also create a larger permanent wound channel which will increase bleeding, and thus stop oxygen from being able to be taken to the brain.
Here's where I'll also add another element to this. Tissue, bone, or muscular damage. If I simply punch a .22 inch hole in someone, though it'll hurt, it may not necessarily effectively impair their mobility or ability to operate weaponry (such as a knife or gun). So, having a bullet that expands or fragments and damages more tissue, more organ surface area, and creates a larger wound channel would be advantageous.
So, some person or persons are in my apartment, and I've decided I've got to use lethal force to protect myself and my wife. That's a horrible thing, it truly is, but, it happens. If they can't be immediately incapacitated by disabling the brain, then, next best thing, disabling what supports the brain, and if I can't do that, damage or diminish their ability to fight or operate a weapon. That's how I see it anyway.
So that's why, though I don't want to necessarily buy the highest end bullets. I do see a value in buying bullets that are more appropriate for my uses, if decently available and affordable.
Here's another tidbit, posted by Klewis (Sir... thank you).
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread....mmo-quot/page3
On page 3 and 4 they demonstrated how a barrier blind ammunition like MK 318 will largely stay intact and penetrate quite a few water jugs, even 4 at 300 yards out of a 10.5'' barrel. Again, not exactly the most scientific test, but, it is interesting to note that the base of the bullet stays in tact, and penetrate deeply.
So, getting back to not being able to always make headshots. I may not get the bullets always where I intend them, I may shoot through a limb, or thin portion of a person in my apartment threatening myself or my family, and I don't want that bullet to pass through them, the dry wall and into my neighbor's apartment.
Thank you both, I'll check them out.
This was extremely helpful. Thank you sir! Lot's of info to review, think through and make a decision off of this.
Thanks again for everyone's input and participation.
ETA 2: Editing and punctuation.
I want the Federal XM556FBIT3, but haven't been able to find it.
Winchester RA556B second choice.
50gr TSX loaded by Black Hills (5.56) third choice.
"The better bonded loads like TBBC, are definitely MORE effective than the TSX style all copper bullets, as they expand better, retain more mass, and offer a larger surface area, especially through intermediate barriers."
You may find this helpful, especially beginning at 6:00. The low mass of 5.56mm rounds, combined with the rapid expansion through drywall, usually results in pretty minimal penetration through building materials.
Note that fragmenting FMJ/OTM rounds are still quite dangerous after penetrating a wall. If you are looking for a round that's safe after one interior wall, I'm afraid there probably isn't such a thing.
I'd still go with an expanding soft point Doc reommends. They offer more consistent terminal performance in Mr. Bad Guy inside your apartment, and probably the same (minimal) risk after two or more walls, as the video shows.
Last edited by FlatDarkEarf; 04-16-2014 at 07:09 AM.
Reply With Quote
